Characters made only for combat

takyris said:
Which really means that an average but untrained person has only a 20% better chance of success in Diplomacy than the least Charismatic human on the face of the planet (3, with a -4).

This means either that the dice don't differentiate enough, or that the difference between a 3 and a 10 shouldn't be that great, in the minds of the designers.
It's also possible the difference is fine the way it is. You can certainly get some funny results with skills in d20, owing to the wide range of possible values and the flat chance of getting any number in the range... A 20% penalty is substantial, but it's not necessarily crippling, which is perhaps what you're looking for. A character with a 3 Int could still make a DC 15 Knowledge check (and he has a 10% chance to do so!). A character with a 3 Cha can still shift the attitude of an indifferent NPC to friendly (10% chance again), although the character has a much better chance of pissing the NPC off (25%).

Meanwhile, back in 8 Charisma-land, the guy with 8 Cha and no Diplomacy has twice the chance of the average Charisma guy of shifting an otherwise neutral NPC to unfriendly. I think the basic assumption built into the DMG reaction tables is that most people won't go out of their way to harm/steal/screw with you unless you do something really bad - simply being ugly or introverted or whatever isn't enough on its own for most NPCs.
 

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My take on it

"How do you handle this?"

How would I handle this? As a DM?

Game mechanics. From what I've read, you sometimes use dice (as when the sorceror botched rolls while selling items), but not always. That is probably why the accusations of you being arbitrary or unfair arise. I don't know, though. I'm not in your group. I can only go on what you say here.

I would introduce fair, equitable rules that involve charisma-based skills with DCs that are known and acknowledged. I would devote maybe 10 - 15 minutes at the end of a session to discussing them, and conclude by saying, "Does this seem fair?" I would include a copy of those in my house rules, which are available to anyone as a printout, or a downloadable file on a Yahoo group. That way, it is never a matter of DM versus players. It's all in the dice. Someone with a high charisma and skills dumped into charisma-based skills such as diplomacy will do better than a person with a low charisma and no skill points in charisma-based skills. It's that simple. And characters ALWAYS have the option of buying for price, or trading at a set rate: say 80% value if they trade other items with a combination of coin/gems/whatever. If they choose to haggle, at that point, and get screwed, then they have no one else to blame but themselves.

You don't complain that the DM is being arbitrary when you make an attack roll, and you miss. You complain when the Armor Class of creatures automatically jumps by 5 whenever Bob takes a swing, but Sally (who always wears tight sweaters) hits on a 2.

"I have a character in my party who is made purely for combat. His dump stat is Charisma with an 8. Every feat he has taken is directly used in melee. Every skill point he has spent is combat related with the possible exception of climb."

These sentences are probably why you are getting flak for your post. They have a distinct nyeh-nyeh-nyeh quality about them which is really unrelated to your question, so I'll avoid them, if that's all right.

"So now when the character attempts to purchase stuff or have magic items created I generally have the NPC's stiff him. They demand full price and expect him to deliver material components that can be used to cover half of their material cost. They also take their time making items and rarely give him prompt service unless he pays extra for it. Finally if he says anything rude or complains they will get even tougher in their negotiations."

And that is precisely why it sounds like your player is complaining. It's a problem he can't change, unless he changes characters, can't overcome, can't do anything about, and knows exactly when it is going to happen.

"The player complains that he is getting stiffed and comments of 'unbelievable' are made all the time."

I would probably say the same thing, based upon what you've presented here. He automatically experiences penalties the moment he walks in the door. The fact that you ONLY apply it when he buys big ticket items (i.e. - when it counts) contributes to the arbitrary nature of the situation, rather than making you seem generous. From what it sounds like, having an 8 charisma in your campaign REALLY means that certain people you interact with automatically have a 3 charisma, and become neutral evil, to boot.

"What should I do? He has created a character that is a walking moron outside of combat with very little skills for dealing with the outside world. If I let him straight roleplay and get better deals then he completely gets away with making Charisma his dump stat and social interaction his dump skill set."

He doesn't have to get better deals for good roleplaying. The price is in the book if he wants a magic item constructed. But he also doesn't have to be slapped on the wrist every time he buys a magic item, either.

"I also look at it this way. If a player made a very social character with no combat feats and few points into combat related skills I wouldnt fudge things in combat. I wouldnt let him roleplay describe his attacks and give him tumble for free or let him have the equivalent to cleave just because he describes a cool attack. He designed a character not focused on combat and he pays the price."

Okay, here's a question: How many skill points does a fighter get? 2 per level + intelligence? Unless you have an outrageous point-buy system, that means he's probably getting 2 - 3 skill ranks per level. Even if he's a ranger or a barbarian, or a mix, that still translates into maybe 4 or 5 skill points per level.

Now, let's look at the Charisma-based skills of these classes: Barbarian - Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha); Fighter - Handle Animal (Cha); Ranger - Animal Empathy (Cha, exclusive skill), Handle Animal (Cha).

None, nada, zip. The system itself discourages combat-based characters from doing anything like diplomacy. Yes, he can dump all of his cross-class ranks every other level into diplomacy, and by 10th level he will have NO skills except diplomacy, where he has 5 ranks. But why should he? According to what you've said, it won't benefit him at ALL unless he's buying big ticket items. And if you decide to make it a diplomacy roll, as you did with your sorceror, then he can still roll badly and all those skill ranks will be wasted.

Damn if you do, and damned if you don't.

There is nothing wrong with making a low charisma character bad in diplomatic situations. He is going to be a bad liar (Bluff). He is not going to be the guy who can't quite fake the accent or act like a simple commoner when they are trying to sneak into the castle (Disguise). He isn't good at negotiating (Diplomacy), and no, he won't get better deals if he tries to haggle. But that doesn't mean that every time he buys an expensive item, he's going to pay 130% of what anyone else would pay, either.

"The rest of society is going to see him as a big dumb akward doofus that they expect to trip over things."

So they see him as dumb, no matter what his intelligence is, and awkward, no matter what his dexterity is, just because he's got an 8 charisma? Yeah.

"I have considered that but I have one problem. As I said before I think combat focus characters alrady have anadvantage or social focus characters. So by letting the combat character do some roleplaying for a circumstance bonus is giving an unfair advantage. Should I allow a bard to get a possible circumstance bonus to his melee attack if he describes his attack and does so in a cool manner?"

The combat focused character has an advantage if you only reward XP for combat. Someone else has already suggested roleplaying XP awards, and I agree.

----

Comments from other miscellaneous people:

"Another thing that does help is to give out roleplaying XP every session, worth about 1/3 the total XP. You do a crappy job roleplaying? You get squat. After several sessions where his buddies are leaving him in the dust XP-wise, even the most hard-headed combat monster I have played with starts to shape up."

See, I prefer this approach. If you want to encourage roleplaying, then reward it. Don't punish people for not doing it. Reward the people who do it well. Give people a reason to enjoy something outside what they might do, normally, and maybe they'll step out and try something new. If not, then let them enjoy the type of character they want to play.

"I agree with you Doc - if the player insists on using Cha as a dump stat, then he gets what he deserves."

I really don't like that sort of "punish the player" mentality.
 

Good points molonel. You saved me from having to type in a series of rebuttals. :D Especially regarding a fighting-class's skill points per level.

I'll leave off on the "what an 8 means in relation to the Average Joe." It really does belong in the other thread...
 

Re: My take on it

molonel said:
"I agree with you Doc - if the player insists on using Cha as a dump stat, then he gets what he deserves."

I really don't like that sort of "punish the player" mentality.

There in lies the problem, you and others have this notion that its punishment. I don't see it as punishment. Thats just how it happens, its not like the player is getting punished. The same goes for any 'dump stat', if they use Intelligence as a 'dump stat' then they "get what they deserve", really crappy skill ranks.

Whats the punishment?? If the character gets a 20% markup, its because he's not as capable of negotiating a good price as those with better social skills. Its not because he needs to be punished for making an unwise decision.

I don't understand why people think of it always as punishment, its called being a DM, its playing the other side. If your going to call that punishment, then you might as well call everything a DM does as rewards or punishments.

"Oh, you are not going to parlay with the orcs? OK I punish you... they attack."

"Oh, you failed your spot check? Ok, I punish you... a trap goes off."

"Oh, you have no social skills whats-so-ever and want to buy a major magic item? Ok, I punish you... I'm adding 20% to the total price of the item."

Give me a break! :/
 

Re: Re: My take on it

kkoie said:
There in lies the problem, you and others have this notion that its punishment. I don't see it as punishment. Thats just how it happens, its not like the player is getting punished. The same goes for any 'dump stat', if they use Intelligence as a 'dump stat' then they "get what they deserve", really crappy skill ranks.
It's punishment when the DM goes above and beyond what's called for to create more of a disadvantage than is deserved. The rules already give dump stats penalties, as you pointed out. Adding things to that--such as automatically making all NPCs Unfriendly instead of Indifferent to start with, or charging 20% on the purchase of magic items. That's punishment.

As was already shown, fighters as a class aren't made to have social skill ranks. I seriously doubt that the designers meant for them to pay 20% extra for all their equipment because of it.
 

It's funny - DocM's language seems very harsh when describing the PC, yet the actual in-game sanction of a 20% markup for the low-CHA foreigner doesn't strike me as unreasonable at all. Quite minor, really (I still chuckle when I remember the Monk PC in my game who paid x4 the market price for a restoration spell to get back 1 point of drained WIS...). There are things the PC could do to avoid this, like using a broker, that he's apparently refusing to do.
All I'd say is that the PC should be allowed to make CHA/Diplomacy or Intimidation etc checks & roleplay and have a chance to make it better, even if the chance of making things worse is higher. The sense of powerlessness is what players really hate - equivalent to refusing to let the bard roll dice in combat.
 

I have to make a suggestion to the player in question.

Spend two points in diplomacy to balance out the -1 modifier for charisma and just end the argument. If the DM is all bent out of joint because you choose to have the smallest modifier available in the game apply to diplomatic situations - just make that modifer 0 (the average). According to the DM's reasoning, now the NPCs are not out to screw the player.

I also have a question for the DM- did you inform the player before he made the character that in your campaign people without social skills "get screwed"? Maybe that would have changed his character.

Aopy
 

Re: Re: Re: My take on it

Lord Pendragon said:
It's punishment when the DM goes above and beyond what's called for to create more of a disadvantage than is deserved. The rules already give dump stats penalties, as you pointed out. Adding things to that--such as automatically making all NPCs Unfriendly instead of Indifferent to start with, or charging 20% on the purchase of magic items. That's punishment.

As was already shown, fighters as a class aren't made to have social skill ranks. I seriously doubt that the designers meant for them to pay 20% extra for all their equipment because of it.

Well I guess thats where you and I will have to agree to disagree, because I don't see it as punishment.
 

kkoie said:


Leaving a campaign should be a last resort, and it should be because of multiple reasons not just one.

If the player can't find any way to work around the challenge the DM has set forth, then thats a problem with the individual player, not the DM or their styles or anything of that nature. If the player can't resolve the problem and ends up leaving the campaign, then I think he's just being a wimp and giving up. Its not like DocM made the situation impossible or anything.

I dunno, maybe the situation between DM and Player has gone to a head, in which case the player might just decide to up and leave. But I find it hard to understand that a player would be that obtuse that he just wouldn't get it, or just wouldn't want to find some solution to work around the problem other than constant whining.

This is rubbish. There is one reason to leave a campaign that is the only necessary one- you are not having fun. If the player in question is not having fun because he perceives (correctly IMHO) that he is being screwed, then he should leave. Doc M apparently believes he is right and isn't interested in change (this thread appears to be a exercise in self-justification), so it is unlikely that the player will find a solution (unless he buckles).

All your rubbish about challenges and putting the onus on the player completely forget that this is merely a game for fun. If it isn't fun, why should he bother? There are other DM's in the world, he should find on more to his taste.

buzzard
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: My take on it

kkoie said:


Well I guess thats where you and I will have to agree to disagree, because I don't see it as punishment.

How could it not be punishment? The campaign is already heavy on intrigue, and the character is likely as useless in the those situations as the bard is in combat (or moreso in fact). The act of screwing him over on purchases comes across as vindictive. It's not in the rules. It's not done to anyone else. It's not even proportional. How is it not punishment?

buzzard
 

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