Characters made only for combat

[Shard O'Glase]

I go back to trust the dice. If he can't roleplay his way out of the flaw, don't roleplay the flaw into more than it is.

Now in this particualr case I'd one go with the die roll and two explicetly state circumstance penalties.

Ok give me a diplomacy check, with a -2 circumstance penalty for being a foreigner, and another -2 for walking aorund in all your arms and armor. Oh you rolled a 10, with a -5 that ='s a 5.

When he sees a result of 5 he'll know he blew the roll, and wont expect much. By labeling the circumstance penalties and applying them across the board to other players(at least the outlander one) he can know of ways to reduce his penalties and imporve his chances.

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

In my opinion, making a point of gunning for this PC in those situations is unnecessary.

The 8 charisma is it's own punishment. Let him fail or succeed fairly based on what he rolls.

I don't give people extra bonuses above and beyond what they should have just because they have a high score. By the same token, I do not unduly punish them for having a low score.
If they have a low score they will sometimes fail their rolls, that's all there is to it.
Anything else is just making extra, arbitrary, rules.

 

[Rackhir]

To be frank the real problem sounds like it has absolutely nothing to do with the char's charisma stat. It seems more like a pretty straight forward case of Player-DM incompatability.

Player wants to run a combat monster.

DM is at a miminum not fond of combat monsters and clearly prefers socially capable characters.

Arguing over stats and appropriate penalties is not going to solve the problem. The player sounds like he essentially wants to play Diablo II and DocM wants to play Baldur's Gate. The two approaches are not compatable.

Unless someone changes (sounds unlikely on either side), the player is going to wind up leaving the campaign eventually. Until then, there is simply going to be increasing friction.

I've left more than one campaign because I didn't like how the DM ran things. My advice would be to leave sooner rather than later You'll both feel like you've wasted less time and hopefully there will be fewer hard feelings than if the player is forced out.

 

[Arnwyn]

8 is 20% less than 10, yes. But then the 8's associated -1 penalty to a d20 roll is only a 5% difference from the 10's +0.

Actually, I wasn't talking about the "-1" modifier. I was purely talking about ability scores - and yes, 8 is 20% under 10 [P.S. Lord Pendragon, what I think you're referring to is standard deviation. But I disagree about "numbers taking effect when they reach extremes". They take effect starting at 9!] Whatever. And Spatula, you're off in your number above, since you are ignoring minimums, maximums and the baseline average. If 10 (+0) *is* average, and 0 (-5) is the absolute minimum, then a -1 score is also 20% under the average (if you go up, you can obviously go beyond 100%, which makes sense and is what we expect considering there is no maximum number).

Can 20% be considered "slightly" or "a little"? Sure it can. However, not everyone will feel that way. The interpretation of the significance of 20% can be debated, and there is no universal answer (nor should there be). Each group will have their own idea of the significance of this 20%.

Originally posted by bwgwl
an 8 Charisma really is only "slightly below average."

Your opinion, of course, not fact (though I'm sure that's what you meant). You're not going to get a universal truth out of this one, as everyone will interpret ability scores differently.

[Uh, I guess this is more appropriate for the other "how low is an 8" thread, isn't it...]

In any case, I agree with many others that it should probably go to the rolls to decide. I like Shard's suggestions above. Going it this way will also help avoid any silly interpretation of scores issue and let the dice decide. (And, as another poster noted, it gets the player involved, and see the result of his 8 Cha and lack of ranks in social skills.)

Whew! All that to say - make the player roll!

 

[Epametheus]

Just let 'em roll. If you feel like using the reaction chart in the DMG, just assume that person he's talking with starts as indifferent at best. Unfriendly might be a better starting point, since he's in a foriegn land.

Roleplay repercussions isn't a bad idea; all an 8 charisma amounts to -1 to assorted interaction checks, and at worst that -1 can be negated for 2 skill points. A penalty to Charisma isn't even in the same order of magnitude to an Intelligence or Constitution penalty is; it's really quite negligable. Charisma is pretty clearly intended to be a dump stat.

Though I usually make Wisdom my dump stat when I make characters, as it's just more fun that way.

 

[barsoomcore]

A penalty to Charisma isn't even in the same order of magnitude to an Intelligence or Constitution penalty is; it's really quite negligable. Charisma is pretty clearly intended to be a dump stat.

Speak for your own campaign. Use Charisma as a dump stat on Barsoom you'll end up skinned alive before you know what's what.

Charming wimps prosper much more easily than hulking louts in THIS DM's world.

 

[kkoie]

Unless someone changes (sounds unlikely on either side), the player is going to wind up leaving the campaign eventually. Until then, there is simply going to be increasing friction.

I've left more than one campaign because I didn't like how the DM ran things. My advice would be to leave sooner rather than later You'll both feel like you've wasted less time and hopefully there will be fewer hard feelings than if the player is forced out.

You don't think that would be over reacting? Leaving the campaign over something this minor would be down right silly. Its not like there arn't any obvious solutions to the players problem!

A. Spend a few skill points on social skills next level.
B. Have a more charismatic character stand in when it comes to transacting major purchases.
C. Understand that when you have an individual that devotes all his skills in one basket, the other baskets are going to remain empty.

To leave a campaign because you don't like a 20% markup... is... quite frankly... an immature solution.

 

[Rackhir]

You don't think that would be over reacting? Leaving the campaign over something this minor would be down right silly. Its not like there arn't any obvious solutions to the players problem!

To leave a campaign because you don't like a 20% markup... is... quite frankly... an immature solution.

If it were that simple to solve the problem, then it would have been solved already. The fact that several people essentially made the same suggestions shortly after the original post should indicate that the obvious solutions are not exactly arcane mysteries revealed only to the enlightened. When the obvious solutions are not working or not being used, generally it is because there are deeper problems that the obvious problems are only symptoms of.

Also I suspect that DocM is not the sort of person to make this sort of post, unless he was already very frustrated. From his posts, he has pointed out the problems and indicated possible solutions to the player and that the player has attemted to work around the character's limitations. However, none of this has lead to any workable solutions.

Therefore what I am seeing in this dilemma is that there is a fundamental incompatability between their two styles. I may well be wrong, as I know neither of them. None the less, as far as I can tell the problem isn't really the mark up when buying things, it's that they don't want to be playing the same kind of game.

DocM certainly doesn't sound like he's interested in changing the way he DM's things. The player doesn't sound like he can change the way he plays. Something is going to have to give sooner or later. Obviously the DM can't leave the campaign, that leaves the player.

 

[Epametheus]

Speak for your own campaign. Use Charisma as a dump stat on Barsoom you'll end up skinned alive before you know what's what.

Charming wimps prosper much more easily than hulking louts in THIS DM's world.

Um, a -1 to a skill check is nothing compared to -1 to every hit die. Anyone can just buy skills cross-class to compensate for the charisma penalty (which also reinforces Intelligence being a lot more valuable than Charisma). Heck, the difference between a Rogue with an 8 Charisma and a Rogue with a 14 Charisma is just 3 points on the bluff check. The low Charisma rogue will break even against characters taking Sense Motive cross-class at low levels, and outstrip them at high level anyways.

Mechanically, Charisma is a joke. The Leadership feat is the only thing outside of the classes with Charisma-based powers that really rewards a high charisma, within the rules.

It's good that you're making it valuable in your campaign; I prefer for it to matter in my games, as well. But it's completely up to the DM to actually make Charisma matter; if you go strictly by the rules, it doesn't matter at all except for class-based exceptions.

 

[takyris]

Epametheus: The blessing and the curse of D&D skills is that it's ALWAYS up to the DM to make them matter.

A game where the DM is uncreative in setting up environments -- a dungeon filled with brightly lit 20x20 rooms with nothing in it except items for example -- hurts any character who put ranks into climb, balance, jump, or hide.

A game where the action is nonstop and the party never has more than a day or two between forced-entry adventures (getting kidnapped, getting a death threat, anything where you HAVE to start immediately) hurts the characters who put ranks into Craft or Profession.

A game in which the DM insists that everyone has to roleplay each encounter and doesn't go with dice rolls hurts the characters who put ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Innuendo, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. A DM who already has the conversation laid out and won't let his character's mind be changed by a good roll does the same thing.

-Tacky