Characters made only for combat
- Thread starter JacktheRabbit
- Start date
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Henry said:
This sounds like a great system to me. After all, while charisma does figure into price negotiations, haggling skill is gonna be more important. (I'd give a +2 synergy bonus on this check for any character with 5 ranks in appraise, btw -- and you bet your britches the merchant's got those 5 ranks!)
[EDIT: Although most merchants will have those 5 ranks, high-level wizards are unlikely to have them. Indeed, some of these bookish NPCs may be so divorced from the real world that they have no idea what constitutes a fair price for the items they create. This will be reflected in their own low charismas and their lack of diplomacy or appraise skills.)
It sounds to me like you're penalizing the PC more than is appropriate: it sounds to me like more than a -1 penalty on Charisma checks. But I also think that a lot of the penalties for charisma ought to appear in normal gameplay, not just in costs.
For example:
-NPCs will look to the high-charisma people as the party leaders, will listen with respect to the high-charisma people, will tend to laugh off or ignore the input of the low-charisma people. When the fighter mentions that maybe the city guard ought to be ready for orc invasions, the guard captain will sneer a little, raise a conspiratorial eyebrow at the bard, and continue with their discussion as if the fighter hadn't said anything.
-NPCs will be quick to take offense at jibes by low-charisma people, not giving them the benefit of the doubt. When a CHA 17 person says, "Your daughter is as smart as she is lovely," the NPC will blush and thank them for the compliment; when a CHA 8 person says the same thing, the NPC will say, "Keep your greasy hands off my daughter!"
This should be subtle, and not overplayed.
Our party's "tank" (actually a monk/rogue, but the best fighter we have) has a six charisma, and the player plays it to the hilt. He's constantly grouchy and viciously insulting, even to his beloved sister. Those of us who know him laugh it off, but strangers that meet him are repelled by his terrible attitude. There are several merchants who refuse to have anything to do with him by this point; our party sorcerer surreptitiously buys things for him now. It's great fun for everyone.
Daniel
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WizarDru
Adventurer
Oddly enough, I've been using Appraise for haggling, not Bluff or Diplomacy. Is there a standard, or is just 'make it up as you go'? It doesn't bother me either way, I'm just curious.
I think Henry's spot on in his points. I think the 'buying a car' analogy is totally wrong. Correct in that you're haggling, incorrect in that you have as many options. Don't like a Ford? Threaten to buy a Hyundai. That doesn't work for magic items. A modern post-IR consumer has vast choices, all without having to travel or even worry about cost variance. A pre-industrial society, magic or no, is totally different.
Buying a magic item is much closer to buying an expensive piece of artwork. Most likely unique or extremely rare, purchasable only from a handful of merchants, if more than one at all. Made by potentially tempermental, undependable and generally flaky individuals who make unusual demands, dabbling in techniques and arts that make no sense to outsiders. The demand is extremely high, but supply is extremely limited, and resources are difficult to come by. There aren't six people in town who can even make a Ring of Elemental Command, let alone who want to and aren't already being well rewarded by more powerful or charismatic individuals to do so. Once the pope tells you to paint a ceiling while he rides off to wage a war, you don't take on side jobs for 50 cents on the dollar.
I think Henry's spot on in his points. I think the 'buying a car' analogy is totally wrong. Correct in that you're haggling, incorrect in that you have as many options. Don't like a Ford? Threaten to buy a Hyundai. That doesn't work for magic items. A modern post-IR consumer has vast choices, all without having to travel or even worry about cost variance. A pre-industrial society, magic or no, is totally different.
Buying a magic item is much closer to buying an expensive piece of artwork. Most likely unique or extremely rare, purchasable only from a handful of merchants, if more than one at all. Made by potentially tempermental, undependable and generally flaky individuals who make unusual demands, dabbling in techniques and arts that make no sense to outsiders. The demand is extremely high, but supply is extremely limited, and resources are difficult to come by. There aren't six people in town who can even make a Ring of Elemental Command, let alone who want to and aren't already being well rewarded by more powerful or charismatic individuals to do so. Once the pope tells you to paint a ceiling while he rides off to wage a war, you don't take on side jobs for 50 cents on the dollar.
Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?
Go with Harry's idea of opposed Diplomacy rolls, or use the rules in the DMG (pg 149) for determining the attitude of the merchant and base the price off of that.
He should, but an 8 CHA is only slightly below average. A -1 to your diplomacy check isn't as harsh as you seem to be playing it.DocMoriartty said:
Go with Harry's idea of opposed Diplomacy rolls, or use the rules in the DMG (pg 149) for determining the attitude of the merchant and base the price off of that.
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?
It is not just the low charisma. It is also the fact that he has not spent a single point on any social skills (even when I made sense motive a class skill for ALL classes) and has nothing but melee combat feats.
To sum it up he has made a character that is good at one thing and one thing only, melee combat.
Add to this the fact that he is far from home and obviously an outsider on sight. Yet the player thinks he should get great deals on everything and seems to believe that since it says "market value" next to magic items prices in the DMG that should be the starting price that he can negotiate down from even when he has no skill at social interaction.
It is not just the low charisma. It is also the fact that he has not spent a single point on any social skills (even when I made sense motive a class skill for ALL classes) and has nothing but melee combat feats.
To sum it up he has made a character that is good at one thing and one thing only, melee combat.
Add to this the fact that he is far from home and obviously an outsider on sight. Yet the player thinks he should get great deals on everything and seems to believe that since it says "market value" next to magic items prices in the DMG that should be the starting price that he can negotiate down from even when he has no skill at social interaction.
Spatula said:
Celebrim
Legend
Try buying things from a market in the third world if you want to see how this actually works. Or buy a car. Or go into a store where nothing has a price tag because if you have to ask you can't afford it and everyone is working on commission.
You better believe your charisma effects the price - by 300% or more in the case of the third world market. It wouldn't be at all unrealistic to assume that on average a -1 penalty to Chr translated into a 10% penalty on prices paid for goods and services from strangers (and increased time in making friendships).
A combat monkey walks into a store and the merchant sees 'stupid, ignorant mercenary with more money than he knows what to do with', sorta like the first thing a third world vendor sees is 'stupid, ignorant American with more money than he knows what to do with'.
I use Diplomacy for haggling. This comes up every time that someone wants to hire the PC's as well as whenever they buy something
I use Appraisal for knowing how much to pay (or charge) and knowing when you are getting a good deal, and knowing whether the good in question is really what it is claimed to be. Craft (weaponsmith) for fighters is highly recommended because it gives a large synergy bonus for appraising weapons (at least under my rules).
I don't go out of my way to punish combat only characters. But, I do make them roll and modify the results accordingly. A big combat tank with low charisma shouldn't expect to do well in social situations. NPC's tend to view them as threatening whether they mean to be or not. They often are dismissive of them, or else clam up around them, or else are openly hostile depending on the personality of the NPC.
You better believe your charisma effects the price - by 300% or more in the case of the third world market. It wouldn't be at all unrealistic to assume that on average a -1 penalty to Chr translated into a 10% penalty on prices paid for goods and services from strangers (and increased time in making friendships).
A combat monkey walks into a store and the merchant sees 'stupid, ignorant mercenary with more money than he knows what to do with', sorta like the first thing a third world vendor sees is 'stupid, ignorant American with more money than he knows what to do with'.
I use Diplomacy for haggling. This comes up every time that someone wants to hire the PC's as well as whenever they buy something
I use Appraisal for knowing how much to pay (or charge) and knowing when you are getting a good deal, and knowing whether the good in question is really what it is claimed to be. Craft (weaponsmith) for fighters is highly recommended because it gives a large synergy bonus for appraising weapons (at least under my rules).
I don't go out of my way to punish combat only characters. But, I do make them roll and modify the results accordingly. A big combat tank with low charisma shouldn't expect to do well in social situations. NPC's tend to view them as threatening whether they mean to be or not. They often are dismissive of them, or else clam up around them, or else are openly hostile depending on the personality of the NPC.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?
Other players roll to get great deals, don't they? Why should he be treated specially? If the other players DON'T roll to get great deals, then your problem isn't the player's single-minded interest in combat -- it's your own unfairness.
Make him USE his Charisma-related skills and he'll value them. Or not, and he'll take what he gets.
You make it sound like that's a bad thing. Why shouldn't he make a character like that? There's certainly people like that in this world.DocMoriartty said:
Sure, let him try. Why not? But make him roll to do so. He's not going to be very good at it, no matter how well he thinks he should do.
Other players roll to get great deals, don't they? Why should he be treated specially? If the other players DON'T roll to get great deals, then your problem isn't the player's single-minded interest in combat -- it's your own unfairness.
Make him USE his Charisma-related skills and he'll value them. Or not, and he'll take what he gets.
Dark Jezter
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?
A fighter who specializes in melee combat? The absurdity of it all!
Why, next thing you know, we'll have wizards who specialize in casting spells, and rogues who specialize in picking locks and disabling traps, and clerics who specialize in healing and turning undead. What's the world coming to?
Seriously, though. With 8 charisma, the fighter only has below-average charisma. Indeed, he's as charismatic as the average dwarf. It dosen't automatically make his character a social retard in any sense of the word. I'd just go by the rules and give him the -1 penalty on any charisma-based skill check. Diplomacy isn't a trained-only skill, so let him try haggling if he wants to. He won't be very good at it, but will it knock the universe out of balance if he actually succeeds once in a while?
DocMoriartty said:
A fighter who specializes in melee combat? The absurdity of it all!
Why, next thing you know, we'll have wizards who specialize in casting spells, and rogues who specialize in picking locks and disabling traps, and clerics who specialize in healing and turning undead. What's the world coming to?
Seriously, though. With 8 charisma, the fighter only has below-average charisma. Indeed, he's as charismatic as the average dwarf. It dosen't automatically make his character a social retard in any sense of the word. I'd just go by the rules and give him the -1 penalty on any charisma-based skill check. Diplomacy isn't a trained-only skill, so let him try haggling if he wants to. He won't be very good at it, but will it knock the universe out of balance if he actually succeeds once in a while?
kkoie
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bad character, or bad role playing, or bad DM?
But that is a bad thing. Unless you are playing in the rpg version of Diablo, there is more to the game than just melee combat. Generally a well balanced adventure will have some situations that call for things other than melee combat.
Its not like he's having a hard time in all of the situations. DocM said that it only makes a differnse with major purchases.
barsoomcore said:
But that is a bad thing. Unless you are playing in the rpg version of Diablo, there is more to the game than just melee combat. Generally a well balanced adventure will have some situations that call for things other than melee combat.
Dark Jezter said:
Its not like he's having a hard time in all of the situations. DocM said that it only makes a differnse with major purchases.
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shilsen
Adventurer
Here's what I'd do in a similar situation (for any character, whether it's the fighter with an 8 Cha or the bard with 18 and 10 ranks in diplomacy):
Let the player roleplay the encounter (if he wished to do so).
Apply a modifier of +2 to -2 depending on the RP-ing (0 if not RP-ed).
Roll a diplomacy check.
Affect the price depending on the result of the check.
This gives the guy with the 8 Cha a chance to get a good deal sometimes, but not as often as the one with a high Cha or good diplomacy score, just as the melee combatant with 8 str and +5 BAB will sometimes score a hit where the +10 BAB guy with 18 str will miss (but not often). The roleplaying modifier lets the players see that RP-ing does matter, but simultaneously doesn't allow the player's abilities to supercede the characters. Simple system.
Let the player roleplay the encounter (if he wished to do so).
Apply a modifier of +2 to -2 depending on the RP-ing (0 if not RP-ed).
Roll a diplomacy check.
Affect the price depending on the result of the check.
This gives the guy with the 8 Cha a chance to get a good deal sometimes, but not as often as the one with a high Cha or good diplomacy score, just as the melee combatant with 8 str and +5 BAB will sometimes score a hit where the +10 BAB guy with 18 str will miss (but not often). The roleplaying modifier lets the players see that RP-ing does matter, but simultaneously doesn't allow the player's abilities to supercede the characters. Simple system.
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