Charging Barbarian Catchup

[DracoSuave]

Its not really a specific item, there's a lot of them. And they don't contradict the rules, they're just worded in a way that suggests my interpretation of the rules.

Eg. Boar Tusk helm.
Power (Daily): Free Action. Trigger: You hit with a weapon at the end of a charge. Effect: <stuff>

It doesn't say "After a charge you may make a free action to do <stuff> before your turn ends" which would be overriding the normal rules. It gives you a trigger, and specifies the action it takes to use the power when the trigger occurs. If the trigger wasn't useable with a free action, it would be a no action (like the powers that let you remove the stunned condition from yourself, etc).

You need to rebrush up on Specific beats General. The item tells you to do something the rules explicitly state you cannot. The item wins, because the item can only be used in that rule breaking manner.

Contrast with Rampage, which can be used in ways that do not break the rules, and therefore is not an inherent 'rulebreaking item.'

The same applies to Boar's Charge Totem, Pouncing Armour, Marauder's Armour, Totemic Belt, etc.

Repetition of the effect doesn't change the rules interaction.

Rampage works the same way as all these items. Its a free action. The trigger is a critical with a barbarian attack power, which can also happen as part of a charge. These items are free actions and have triggers that occur at various points (before, during, after) of charges. There's not really any difference.

Except for one.

The items you mention are triggered by a charge attack. Those can only be used after a charge attack, and therefore, contradict the rules about not using actions after a charge.

And Charge itself says in no uncertain terms:

No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra
action.

You can try to say Charge allows actions after its use, but Charge itself says 'Actually, no.'

Free actions triggered -explicitly- by a charge are an exception because they directly contradict this rule by their existance. Free actions triggered -explicitly- by a critical hit are not an exception, because they do not directly contradict this rule by their existance.

This is NOT the same thing in any conceivable fashion.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Whoa, I read the title as Charging Barbarian Ketchup. That would've created a totally different thread.

 

[DracoSuave]

Whoa, I read the title as Charging Barbarian Ketchup. That would've created a totally different thread.

I often describe the results of a Charging Barbarian as 'Ketchup'. Also 'Salsa' and various other red condoments.

 

[Destil]

1) since a charge usually 'ends your turn' does that mean that if you kill someone after a use of Swift Charge that you don't get your free basic attack from Rampage?

By the rules as written, no. That said most DMs are pretty cool and may allow it (I would).

 

[Prestidigitalis]

General comment: While the "Specific beats General" rule is useful, there can be no cut-and-dried RAW ruling unless WotC favors us with a numerical "Specificity Rating" for each rule.

As this will never happen, it is a simple fact that there will ALWAYS be room for interpretation in this type of discussion, short of a formal, case-by-case declaration from an official WotC spokesperson.

We simply need to learn to live with ambiguity, even here on the Internet where opinion has the force of Natural Law.

 

[Donderafosti]

Paradox?

I'm confused...spending an action point is a free action, so if you're not allowed free actions after a charge (unless you spend an action point to do so) you'd have to spend the action point action to spend the action point? sounds weird...

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Not really - when it tells you that you can do something, it alters the previous rule.

For example - you cannot cross the street between intersections. You can cross at a crosswalk.

This isn't a paradox, but rather the second is an exception from the first.

So, in the case at hand, one cannot use further actions (including free actions) after a charge, except by use of an action point (which, implicit in the exception, is that you can use a free action to get the action point).

 

[RigaMortus2]

PHB2 and Primal Power have been out for a long time now and I just now got around to looking at barbarians.

Not sure what your definition of "long time" is, but Primal Power is only about a month and a half old...

Just saying