Charging, Cleave, Spring attack and AoO...

[DM-Rocco]

A few questions regarding these feats. The map below shows A1 as attacker one and A2 as attacker 2 and O is for opponent 1-5. The attackers have spring attack and cleave but no improved reflexes.

Can you charge as part of a spring attack?

If you can and you charge a straight line to an opponent, as A1 has done, can you move out of a straight line after the attack as indicated by the line? Or would you have to tumble through the opponent, assuming the opponent didn't die?

If youcan charge as part of the spring attack and you attack O1 and he doesn't die and you don't have tumble ranks, then what?

If A1 kills O1, he gets a cleave, does he have to use it on O2 or can he use it on O5 after he finishes his move?

If A2 charges and attacks O3 and kills O3, he gets a cleave on O1 or O4, if he doesn't kill one of them, and they move on their turn through his threatened area and A2 takes his AoO and kills O1, does he get a cleave on O4 from an AoO?

What about if A2 didn't kill O3 and thus didn't get his cleave, would he then get a cleave from his AoO?

Thanks in advance for your time

 

[Thanee]

Can you charge as part of a spring attack?

No.

You need to use the attack action to use Spring Attack, the charge action is not the attack action.

...

If A1 kills O1, he gets a cleave, does he have to use it on O2 or can he use it on O5 after he finishes his move?

Immediately, which means from the position where A1 attacked O1.

If A2 charges and attacks O3 and kills O3, he gets a cleave on O1 or O4, if he doesn't kill one of them, and they move on their turn through his threatened area and A2 takes his AoO and kills O1, does he get a cleave on O4 from an AoO?

No.

Only one cleave per round, except with Great Cleave or some other effect, that allows multiple cleaves.

What about if A2 didn't kill O3 and thus didn't get his cleave, would he then get a cleave from his AoO?

That depends on how you rule it. Officially... yeah, Cleave works that way.
Many DMs (including myself) do not allow Cleave to work off an AoO, though.

Thanks in advance for your time

No problem.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DM-Rocco]

That clears that up, thanks for the quick response


I think I am also going with the no cleave on AoO, if you can't make a called shot or a disarm or trip attempt on a AoO, stands to reason you shouldn't be able to use cleave

 

[Thanee]

Called shot?

You can make disarm or trip attacks as an AoO.

The 'problem' with Cleave and AoO is basically, that you are going to attack someone else with a follow-up attack based on the AoO, even though they did not let their guard down, because someone else provoked it. That just doesn't seem right for some reason (to me, anyways).

Bye
Thanee

 

[RisnDevil]

Can't it be justified that the reason you can get a Cleave of an AoO is because, when that person dropped, it made an opening that the person thought was covered by his ally, or distracted and/or unnerverd him just enough to let an attack slip by?

 

[Scion]

Can't it be justified that the reason you can get a Cleave of an AoO is because, when that person dropped, it made an opening that the person thought was covered by his ally, or distracted and/or unnerverd him just enough to let an attack slip by?

There are tons of ways to justify it, just like there are tons of ways that it happens in other parts of the game. Some people just dont like it.

I have no problem with it, in fact I encourage it as a valid tactic. It isnt like cleave sees much use at higher levels anyway, and great cleave less so, no point in taking away one of its options.

Especially if it makes the pcs think more. That is always good

 

[DM-Rocco]

Called shot?

You can make disarm or trip attacks as an AoO.

The 'problem' with Cleave and AoO is basically, that you are going to attack someone else with a follow-up attack based on the AoO, even though they did not let their guard down, because someone else provoked it. That just doesn't seem right for some reason (to me, anyways).

Bye
Thanee

Called shot was a mechanic in Grim and Gritty. I DM regular D&D, but I play in a G&G game, they have called shots as a standard action where you can say you want to hit him in the head or shot him in the leg and you get a negative to hit but have other benifits. Can you do an attack that counts as a standard action during a AoO?

 

[Infiniti2000]

The 'problem' with Cleave and AoO is basically, that you are going to attack someone else with a follow-up attack based on the AoO, even though they did not let their guard down, because someone else provoked it. That just doesn't seem right for some reason (to me, anyways).

How is that any different than when not doing it on an AoO? There's absolutely no difference as far as the target of the cleave is concerned. In either case, he is doing nothing differently to let his guard down. So, in fact, your choice to not allow the cleave is completely arbitrary. It seems more like you just want to not allow cleaves at all.

Can you do an attack that counts as a standard action during a AoO?

You can make an attack. You don't get a standard action. Just because it normally takes a standard action to make a single attack does not imply you get a standard action on AoO. In fact, you can't even take a free action on your AoO (like quickdrawing a different weapon).

 

[moritheil]

How is that any different than when not doing it on an AoO? There's absolutely no difference as far as the target of the cleave is concerned. In either case, he is doing nothing differently to let his guard down. So, in fact, your choice to not allow the cleave is completely arbitrary. It seems more like you just want to not allow cleaves at all.

That last sentence is a bit much.

The rationale behind the AOO is that it is a specific circumstance that happens concerning one enemy. As Thanee says, the AOO signifies someone lowering their guard.

Cleave would extend it to other nearby enemies within reach - enemies who did not lower their guard.

Obviously cleave can be used normally with attacks against people who did not lower their guard. I don't think anyone is questioning that.

 

[FireLance]

How is that any different than when not doing it on an AoO? There's absolutely no difference as far as the target of the cleave is concerned. In either case, he is doing nothing differently to let his guard down. So, in fact, your choice to not allow the cleave is completely arbitrary. It seems more like you just want to not allow cleaves at all.

Cleaving is fine with me. It's just cleaving off an AOO that I don't quite like. It's a bit like this - on your turn, you get to attack anyone, even if he doesn't lower his defences. So, if you kill an enemy and cleave into another, the second enemy is no worse off than if the first enemy wasn't there. If he wasn't there, you could have attacked him anyway.

Now, if the first enemy lowers his defences, provokes an AOO and gets killed for it, by the rules, the guy with Cleave gets another attack against the second enemy - even though the second enemy did not lower his defences. The creatures provoking the AOO don't even have to be allied with the second guy - if a pack of dire lemmings (use dire rat statistics, but more suicidal) suddenly appears on the scene and they take turns to run behind the guy with Cleave, then he can kill one per round and get an extra attack against his opponent. If he happens to have Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave as well, that's a number of extra attacks equal to his Dexterity bonus. Now, to take this to an even more ridiculous extreme, let's say it was a pack of invisible, silenced dire lemmings, and the guy with Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave has see invisible active. His opponent sees and hears nothing out of the ordinary, except that the guy he's fighting whacks something behind him, and attacks him, whacks something else behind him, and attacks him, and so on until he runs out of AOOs.

So, that's my personal objection. Other DMs will allow or disallow Cleave off AOOs for their own reasons.