D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

[Zardnaar]

That's gotta be pretty pacing-dependent.

I'd credit it as high as 11, and, IMX, as low as 3.

Yeah that's fair 3 is fairly good,11 is a big jump.

 

[Undrave]

I think for a majority of builds Dex is a huge component of their AC though. At least I know it is for any non-cleric spellcaster I make, or Monk, or Rogue, or Barbarian.

Only few builds I've seen dump Dex for Heavy armor. Pretty much fighters and clerics are the only ones I've seen take a low Dex to crawl into their heavy armors.

So I don't think it's not a significant component of Dex's "power" or "reputation" either.

Don't forget Paladin!

 

[Salthorae]

Don't forget Paladin!

I guess I'm like @lowkey13 and the Paladin just gets purposefully left out of things slips my mind

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, but again... how is that a problem?

So there's a wizard that has a mediocre INT and has raised their DEX and CON. Okay. Good for them. Why is that a bad thing? Why are characters that have higher DEX and CON stats such an issue for people?

There's only ONE reason why people get all bent out of shape over PCs that have higher DEXes and CONs and lower INTs and STRs... "Because it's cookie cutter!" "Because every character is the same!" "Because I'm bored of seeing it!"

Well why are you even looking at these character sheets to begin with? Guess what? If you are a DM and are tired of seeing cookie cutter characters, it ain't the numbers on the character sheets that are causing duplication and your boredom... it's your PLAYERS who can't seem to roleplay any differently no matter what their characters are.

If you've seen three archery PCs that have maximized their DEX, CON, and taken the Sharpshooter feat... yes, you will see three characters that have good ranged attack bonuses and do good damage. Just like every other character at the table will have a good attack bonus and good damage. But none of those three archery characters will feel the same if the players actually create three distinct personalities, each with their own virtues, flaws and quirks.

The numbers on the sheet are meaningless unless the player actually roleplays what those numbers mean. Having written down a +4 next to the letters D-E-X on a character sheet is no different than having a +4 next to the letters S-T-R. They are both a random number found next to a random set of letters scribbled down in pencil on a piece of paper. None of that should EVER affect a DM or make them "bored" because those table scratches do nothing whatsoever until the DM or player roleplays what those letters actually represent at the table.

There's a reason why AD&D existed and was so popular and memorable even though every single Fighter PC had almost the exact same small number of game mechanical abilities and capabilities. Because the numbers on the sheet aren't the character. So stop looking at all these pieces of paper and saying "Hmm, why do these all look alike? We can't have that!" And instead see what characters your players have come up with and are playing. You'll most likely find they aren't all that similar after all.

(And on the off-chance they are... that just means your players can't roleplay original characters, and no amount of changes to their character sheet is going to change that. The character sheet is just the symptom, not the disease.)

We stopped using point buy because cookie cutter characters and strength and intelligence being used as dump stats.

We have an aasimar Druid and she has a higher charisma score than wisdom.

Wouldn't see that with default array.

 

[Ashrym]

So they'll do great on long days, especially long days with lots of short rests, relative to the wizard. 5MWD, the wizard has more powerful top-level spells to nova with, and neither of them are likely to get down to their at-will baseline.
So, when comparing the two, Pacing matters, no?

They'll do great compared to wizards at low levels because the wizards run out of spell slots and the SLA's are always there plus EB's will do more damage. That's true regardless of pacing. The short rests just also allow the warlock to also cast more slotted spells too.

Top level spells aren't in more abundance than the wizard either. The wizard by far has a wider spell selection, and the wizard more likely has better advantages with that selection based on tradition or circumstance. The actual number of higher level spells without short rests is the same because of arcanum or highest slots being equivalent.

A warlock always has access to the same level of spell as the wizard. It's the build up of lower level slots as levels increase that creates the pacing impact.

I've been playing for nearly 40 years I didn't even hear of the 5MWD until WotC forums when I joined DnD Next. Players don't have a pause button for the world just because they want to rest. I've never had a problem where everyone decided they would blow all their resources, rest, rinse, and repeat as DM or as a player. YMMV, but it's not a valid argument from my own experience. I also think it's far easier and more likely to take short rests than long rests.

However, going with this nova concept on the 5MWD doesn't give the action economy for the wizard to blow all those spells any faster than the warlock can go through his on a single encounter. If we are to argue that the spell casters take an encounter, long rest, and take an encounter, etc. They cast a 9th level spell and a 9th level arcanum, then cast an 8th level spell and an 8th level arcanum, then cast a 7th level spell and a 7th level arcanum, then cast a 6th level spell and a 6th level arcanum, or something like that?

The premise requires everyone adhere to the number of spells the wizard casts before resting instead of the number of spells the warlock casts before resting. If the party would rest for the wizard, they would rest for the warlock. Even with the 5MWD, warlock have enough options to blow their highest level spells too unless we're constructing a scenario where it's after the wizard has enough lower level slots but before the warlock also adds arcanum and the fight lasts longer than 3 rounds and the party is willing to rest for the wizard but not for the warlock.

To be clear, I said pacing does matter more and more as levels increase, btw. If we're going with 5MWD's that changes because fights don't last long enough to run either out of their highest level options faster than the other.

 

[Salthorae]

We stopped using point buy because cookie cutter characters and strength and intelligence being used as dump stats.

We have an aasimar Druid and she has a higher charisma score than wisdom.

Wouldn't see that with default array.

Do you also use 'assign in order' and pick your class before you roll your stats?

Otherwise, even with rolled stats, I wouldn't expect to see a Druid with a higher Cha than Wis given that Wis is their primary casting stat, aasimar or not.

 

[Zardnaar]

You notice Dex a lot when things go wrong.

A level 11 fighter using a melee weapon strength based. Needs to switch to range.

Round 1 puts weapon away
Round two draws spear and throws it, maybe t disadvantage. Or switched to bow sucking up -5 to hit assuming 20 str 10 Dex.
Round 3 draws 1 spear, or fires a bow 3 times badly.

The Dex fighter just draws a bow and fires it 3 times. If they're a dual wielder with the feat the can wander around with 1 weapon,put it away draw a bow and have 3 attacks.

So they have had 6 attacks round 2 vs 1 thrown spear or the strength fighter had had 3 at penalties to hit.

You can only draw one thrown weapon a round and they are short range.

More skills are keyed off Dex,more common save, initiative,more skills etc. One less AC.

 

[Zardnaar]

Do you also use 'assign in order' and pick your class before you roll your stats?

Otherwise, even with rolled stats, I wouldn't expect to see a Druid with a higher Cha than Wis given that Wis is their primary casting stat, aasimar or not.

Assign how you like. She rolled two 17s and her racial mad charisma her highest ability.

13 con party had a bit of combat ability, the face niche was open so she chose 17 Cha.

 

[5ekyu]

It's not that CHA is the entire social pillar so much is that tends to be where the active uses are in the social pillar. CHA, DEX, and STR see a lot of active checks for actions made by the PC's. INT, WIS, and CON are checks more often associated a use in reaction to something else.

DEX in particular sees a lot of use in other mechanics. I'm not sure CHA does compared to STR just because 3 major spell casters use it when fighters, paladins, and barbarians also tend to use STR.

The actual CHA checks are more interesting than the STR checks, however. Look at what STR and athletics covers and then look at what CHA and the various CHA skills cover. Jumping, climbing, swimming, and forcing open a stuck door don't seem as pivotal as deceiving, intimidating, or persuading. That might be a player perception issue or a DM issue, but it's how I see those two ability scores in comparison.

Arcane casters are CHA for known, INT for prepared as a general rule. EK and AT are INT because they are specifically learning wizard spells. Changing the warlock makes him better at knowing things and weaker at intimidating, deceiving, or persuading people. That doesn't seem to follow the trope.

It makes more sense to change the bard to INT because bards are included with learned spellcasters (hence ritual casting), INT leads to supporting the bardic knowledge trope, and while they might be known for deceiving or persuading they are not particularly know for intimidation. That loses one concept for another so why bother.

sidenote: I guess if a person really wanted to mess with the bards then making them use WIS for spells on the cleric or druid list, INT for the spells on the wizard list, and CHA for every other spell on the bard list might split their focus.



Warlocks aren't as restricted by short rests as people think. One aspect of the class is. They have a fair bit of at-will ability compared to other spell casters. The trick is to not get sucked in to all those eldritch blast enhancements unless that's all you really want to do with your warlock. Agonizing blast is the only really important one.

Warlocks don't match up with a wizard or bard in versatility. The SLA's are just another type of warlock spam that helps cover spell slots regardless of resting so it's a question of EB's and SLA's vs variety. Pacing will matter more and more as other spell casters gain levels and slots.



Pffft…. I focus on skills and ability checks as a rogue and INT is still 5th in line for ability score priority. WIS beats it for perception and insight instead of just investigation, and WIS saves are a lot more common.

BTW, I don't disagree with what you said. I'm very much in agreement that INT is a low priority outside of using it for spellcasting or a flavor build for knowledge. Investigation on a character without expertise in investigation is the only other draw.

"It's not that CHA is the entire social pillar so much is that tends to be where the active uses are in the social pillar. CHA, DEX, and STR see a lot of active checks for actions made by the PC's. INT, WIS, and CON are checks more often associated a use in reaction to something else."

As I suggested above, this is not "per the rules." The DMG social system creates a strong incentive to get into and leverage to shift the status of an NPC before you get yo charisma checks. Investigation and Indight are both vital to those. These could produce not just numerical shifts from 10-20 points but also make it possible to get to certain results.

If your social pillar only sees active uses of charisma, thatis a statement about the type of social challenge scenes and the complexity of them being presented, not the rules or system.

 

[Ashrym]

"It's not that CHA is the entire social pillar so much is that tends to be where the active uses are in the social pillar. CHA, DEX, and STR see a lot of active checks for actions made by the PC's. INT, WIS, and CON are checks more often associated a use in reaction to something else."

As I suggested above, this is not "per the rules." The DMG social system creates a strong incentive to get into and leverage to shift the status of an NPC before you get yo charisma checks. Investigation and Indight are both vital to those. These could produce not just numerical shifts from 10-20 points but also make it possible to get to certain results.

If your social pillar only sees active uses of charisma, thatis a statement about the type of social challenge scenes and the complexity of them being presented, not the rules or system.

That's a pretty absolute statement considering what you quoted me actually saying, lol.