Undrave
Legend
All stats have the same cost when using the basic point buy system, but some are just downright MORE VALUABLE than others...
D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum
All stats have the same cost when using the basic point buy system, but some are just downright MORE VALUABLE than others...
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
There's truth to this, but then you'd have to have a much more complicated point-buy system to account for it where Dex/Wis/Cha cost more points than Str/Con/Int.
But really it should be a three or four-tiered point system. Dex/Wis/Cha - Tier 1, Str/Con - Tier 2, Int - Tier 3 at least.
... and
Plus, and I add this with a handful of salt grains, Dex/Wis/Cha are only more valuable to certain builds.
I've done plenty of 5e builds that dump Wis/Cha. Less so on Dex, but I've done them for Str based melee concepts.
Stats are valuable relative to the character you want to build. While Dex is objectively valuable, that doesn't mean that it is always going to be prioritized. Cha certainly isn't on the same level as that. I still see TONS of builds that dump Cha because they aren't social or Cha casters and for those builds other things are more important.
But again... so what?
So DEX and CHA appear as higher stats on more character sheets. So what? Why is that a problem?
If I had to guess... the answer that people will give to that question will be "Well, it means all the characters created are all the same!". But again... so what? So you have the same game mechanic numbers appearing on multiple sheets in multiple games. Why is that a problem? Are the characters all being roleplayed the same way too? Do they all have the same character backgrounds? Do they all have the same personality tics? The same character flaws? The same status in their home nation? The same status in their current home base? In the party? My guess is... no, they don't. So the actual characters are different... but the little squiggly lines that are scribbled on the character sheet which denote "game mechanics" appear in the same places.
So if the characters are fundamentally different in personality, virtue, hubris, status, belief system etc... then why should it matter that most of them might have an 18 DEX and a 10 INT rather than a 16 STR and 14 INT? Those are just numbers that get added to other random numbers to denote whether other numbers go up or down, but they have nothing to do with who the actual character is.
(Unless you happen to have extremely good and cognizant roleplayers who actually roleplay to their character's stats. But if that's the case, they will be selecting stats that actually fit the characters they come up with, and not just min-maxing to the "uber-stats" like everyone seems to believe is happening.)
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Tony Vargas
Legend
That's gotta be pretty pacing-dependent.
I'd credit it as high as 11, and, IMX, as low as 3.
Tony Vargas
Legend
I think we need to allow for prime requisites, there. CHA is the caster stat for 3 full casters, WIS 2, INT only 1. That's gotta skew things.
Because they're weighted the same as other stats at chargen & ASI.
But, that us not true. At least, not on it's own.
Is Int or Con or Wisdom more VALUABLE?
Can you answer that accurately?
Not without knowing if the character is a fighter, a druid or a Wizard, right?
There is zero need for point-buy to make a cost-value work out in the abstract, since those ability scores each vary in VALUE depending on the choices of class and race and background- which are mandatory. You font "plsy" an ability but rather a character which mechanically speaking is a combo deal of race-class-scores-background.
Do you find that cgaracters that tend to buy higher charisma or higher int play out underpowered or overpowered all told? If not, then the overall build balance is working just fine even with the lack of balance on each separate ingredient.
Undrave
Legend
It means that the system is trying REALLY hard to keep the classic 6, but the designers are struggling to justify them all still existing. It's a wonky design.
Sure, your Primary and usually Secondary stats are roughly equal but when we get to the last few points you get? Not the same at all.
CON is always useful because you'll take damage at some point. CHA is always useful if you want to contribute to the Social pillar because it's 90% of it. Everybody wants good Perception but not everyone can justify getting WIS if they could get a boost to their DEX or CON instead.
Almost no one picks INT as a third good stat. If you'll lucky someone with a +2 Int race will pick a non-INT class and then shrug and put a 10 in INT so that bonus doesn't go to waste. An argument could be made a Rogue (Arcane Trickster aside) would like Investigation, but they'd be better served by investing in CON after they invest in DEX and CHA and just use Expertise to shore up their Investigation score...
You seem to be making my point. For even the rogue, you get to the point of spends going to scores that keep their key roles going. By the time you get to an ability score's usefulness as a fourth, fifth or sixth score you are looking at very minor differences in VALUE to the overall character. The actual VALUE provided by a score is how much it provides when it is in the top three ability scores for your character, not what it gives you when it's a 10 vs 8 vs 12 on tasks that are " off-suit."
In actual play, in my experience, the meaningful VALUE of your two to three lowest ability scores is in their roleplaying value. I cant think I have ever seen the bottom 3 ability scores play in any character a major way as a contributor to the performance (overall, not just an snecdotal one time made roll by one thing.) But they do often serve as good RP fodder - slightly puny vs slightly annoying vs slightly uneducated - for instance.
In actual play, in my experience, the meaningful VALUE of your two to three lowest ability scores is in their roleplaying value. I cant think I have ever seen the bottom 3 ability scores play in any character a major way as a contributor to the performance (overall, not just an snecdotal one time made roll by one thing.) But they do often serve as good RP fodder - slightly puny vs slightly annoying vs slightly uneducated - for instance.
Tony Vargas
Legend
You can.
Wrong. The value of the stat doesn't change. A class that leverages a less valuable stat (like INT or STR), is /slightly/ less valuable than one that leverages an already valuable stat. For instance, it's surprisingly viable to make a mediocre-INT wizard heavily invested in DEX or CON ("just" avoid spells that force saves or take attack rolls).
No, /maybe/ in a game that was just meticulously class-balanced, you might expect that's accounted for in the class design. I wouldn't expect that in D&D. Though, the Wizard, for instance, is certainly fine - still comfortably class-Tier 1 - even 'saddled' with INT as its caster stat.
Yeah, but again... how is that a problem?
So there's a wizard that has a mediocre INT and has raised their DEX and CON. Okay. Good for them. Why is that a bad thing? Why are characters that have higher DEX and CON stats such an issue for people?
There's only ONE reason why people get all bent out of shape over PCs that have higher DEXes and CONs and lower INTs and STRs... "Because it's cookie cutter!" "Because every character is the same!" "Because I'm bored of seeing it!"
Well why are you even looking at these character sheets to begin with? Guess what? If you are a DM and are tired of seeing cookie cutter characters, it ain't the numbers on the character sheets that are causing duplication and your boredom... it's your PLAYERS who can't seem to roleplay any differently no matter what their characters are.
If you've seen three archery PCs that have maximized their DEX, CON, and taken the Sharpshooter feat... yes, you will see three characters that have good ranged attack bonuses and do good damage. Just like every other character at the table will have a good attack bonus and good damage. But none of those three archery characters will feel the same if the players actually create three distinct personalities, each with their own virtues, flaws and quirks.
The numbers on the sheet are meaningless unless the player actually roleplays what those numbers mean. Having written down a +4 next to the letters D-E-X on a character sheet is no different than having a +4 next to the letters S-T-R. They are both a random number found next to a random set of letters scribbled down in pencil on a piece of paper. None of that should EVER affect a DM or make them "bored" because those table scratches do nothing whatsoever until the DM or player roleplays what those letters actually represent at the table.
There's a reason why AD&D existed and was so popular and memorable even though every single Fighter PC had almost the exact same small number of game mechanical abilities and capabilities. Because the numbers on the sheet aren't the character. So stop looking at all these pieces of paper and saying "Hmm, why do these all look alike? We can't have that!" And instead see what characters your players have come up with and are playing. You'll most likely find they aren't all that similar after all.
(And on the off-chance they are... that just means your players can't roleplay original characters, and no amount of changes to their character sheet is going to change that. The character sheet is just the symptom, not the disease.)
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