Charles Ryan on Adventures
- Thread starter MerricB
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Pants
First Post
That's what happened with me.Mercule said:
During the early d20 craze I bought some baaaad 3rd party books, I got burned and I swore them off for a long time. I'm slowly coming around, but I'm probably too critical at times.
I literally winced when I read this.
Although it may be Charles' opinion, being the Brand Manager, his opinions should be more... tactful. Especially since his opinions could reflect badly upon the company.
I think it was in kind of poor form to say that. It really didn't add anything to the statement other than fuel for the fires that always seem to be burning under WotC's rump.
I don't think that's true at all.Aus_Snow said:Fixed this for you.
I've praised several of their books myself even. Who'da thought?
ENWorld is very diverse. True, WotC gets a lot of focus here, but most of the time, that is balanced out by people being critical of their books (no bad thing mind you, everyone needs to be critical). In fact, I've never seen a thread here that has had only unilateral praise for WotC. I've seen far more complaining about something they're doing or have done (*cough*3.5*cough*).
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Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Amazing. Charles Ryan didn't really say anything all that bad at all, and people go crazy about it. He has every right to say that the products from the company he works for are the best. Why is it that HE can say that but I've seen multiple occurances of OTHER publishers saying the same thing on their sites and no one goes crazy? Heck, some publishers even do that here on ENWorld and people just go on as if nothing happened.
...and the funny thing is, his statement is CORRECT. Note that he says 'largely empty' when talking about adventures. Yes, there are companies that make them(and good ones at that), buts its obviously NOT what WotC had expected when they left that part of the market alone.
So now they're stepping in to fill the gap they see.
Sometimes it seems like it'd be best if WotC people would just never say a single thing to us at all. But no, then they'd get blasted for being secretive...because they'd obviously be plotting 4e. Guess they just can't win.
...and the funny thing is, his statement is CORRECT. Note that he says 'largely empty' when talking about adventures. Yes, there are companies that make them(and good ones at that), buts its obviously NOT what WotC had expected when they left that part of the market alone.
So now they're stepping in to fill the gap they see.
Sometimes it seems like it'd be best if WotC people would just never say a single thing to us at all. But no, then they'd get blasted for being secretive...because they'd obviously be plotting 4e. Guess they just can't win.
CharlesRyan
Adventurer
Wow. What a ruccus I've stirred up!
I'm sorry to have given the impression of disrespecting any particular d20 publisher. Let me make clear that my comments were quite generalized (please note that I said "most" companies this and "many" companies that). Obviously there are companies that still make adventures, and obviously some companies that have abandoned them make other products that are quite good and serve a valuable niche in the portfolio of game products available to the d20 gamer. Where those things are true, my comments obviously don't apply.
But here's the thing (and this also speaks to my comment about WotC making the best hardcover supplements): We have a distinct and unsurmountable competitive advantage in the category of core supplements. We have the highest production values, and the economy of scale to carry them out in every single product. We have core designers who know the game better than anyone--and not just the game as you see it on the shelves now, but also as it's evolving in products that won't be out for another six months or a year. We have the most powerful brand in gaming--perhaps in fantasy overall. And we have the largest, most experienced collection of game-design minds assembled on this planet. The tastes of any individual on these boards notwithstanding, for these reasons we will alway dominate the market for hardcover core d20 supplements. [Oh yeah, and we're just darn good. Of course I believe that--if I didn't, I'd go work for someone else!] Anyone who wants to scoot up to this buffet, as someone analogized, is going to have to do something truly unique, or they'll find themselves clawing over our scraps.
Compare that to a typical adventure: A creative, talented author with a good idea, a solid grasp of D&D, and a few thousand bucks can put out a really good adventure--perhaps as good or better than anything we can do. Aside from our brand, all of our competitive advantage is neutralized in this category.
My hat is off to those companies that have made unique product lines and found a place for themselves. But for every one of them, there are twenty that didn't. (Remember, from where I sit, I see the entire d20 spectrum--not just the companies that do well enough to develop a vocal following on EN World.) Those twenty have choked the RPG supply chain with product that doesn't move because it doesn't address a need or do anything better than what we do.
The key to a healthy gaming marketplace is a diversified portfolio--a range of products offered to the consumer that cover all of his or her needs, with just enough duplication to ensure healthy competition. The d20 community, as a whole, hasn't delivered. (And again, this isn't a slam on any company that is delivering!) That results in A) a hole that WotC is now going to fill, and B) a d20 industry that's really struggling. Which is what I said in my original reply to Merric.
Sorry to have given offense; hopefully that clears things up a bit!
I'm sorry to have given the impression of disrespecting any particular d20 publisher. Let me make clear that my comments were quite generalized (please note that I said "most" companies this and "many" companies that). Obviously there are companies that still make adventures, and obviously some companies that have abandoned them make other products that are quite good and serve a valuable niche in the portfolio of game products available to the d20 gamer. Where those things are true, my comments obviously don't apply.
But here's the thing (and this also speaks to my comment about WotC making the best hardcover supplements): We have a distinct and unsurmountable competitive advantage in the category of core supplements. We have the highest production values, and the economy of scale to carry them out in every single product. We have core designers who know the game better than anyone--and not just the game as you see it on the shelves now, but also as it's evolving in products that won't be out for another six months or a year. We have the most powerful brand in gaming--perhaps in fantasy overall. And we have the largest, most experienced collection of game-design minds assembled on this planet. The tastes of any individual on these boards notwithstanding, for these reasons we will alway dominate the market for hardcover core d20 supplements. [Oh yeah, and we're just darn good. Of course I believe that--if I didn't, I'd go work for someone else!] Anyone who wants to scoot up to this buffet, as someone analogized, is going to have to do something truly unique, or they'll find themselves clawing over our scraps.
Compare that to a typical adventure: A creative, talented author with a good idea, a solid grasp of D&D, and a few thousand bucks can put out a really good adventure--perhaps as good or better than anything we can do. Aside from our brand, all of our competitive advantage is neutralized in this category.
My hat is off to those companies that have made unique product lines and found a place for themselves. But for every one of them, there are twenty that didn't. (Remember, from where I sit, I see the entire d20 spectrum--not just the companies that do well enough to develop a vocal following on EN World.) Those twenty have choked the RPG supply chain with product that doesn't move because it doesn't address a need or do anything better than what we do.
The key to a healthy gaming marketplace is a diversified portfolio--a range of products offered to the consumer that cover all of his or her needs, with just enough duplication to ensure healthy competition. The d20 community, as a whole, hasn't delivered. (And again, this isn't a slam on any company that is delivering!) That results in A) a hole that WotC is now going to fill, and B) a d20 industry that's really struggling. Which is what I said in my original reply to Merric.
Sorry to have given offense; hopefully that clears things up a bit!
RangerWickett
Legend
In my initial post, I was merely concerned that Mr. Ryan's statement makes it look like WotC views 3rd party publishers as competitors now, not allies. This makes me concerned that perhaps WotC, if it releases 4th edition, might not make it open content, and I feel this would be bad for the game. It wouldn't necessarily be bad for the industry, because we've seen a clear birth of new companies in the past 5 years, and I'm pretty sure those who are still around could survive on their own devices.
However, to address the argument from a page ago. It's one thing to be proud of your talents ("We put out the best products!"). That's fine. That's good spirit.
It is bad, however, to combine a statement of pride with one of criticism ("Other publishers didn't write adventures like we thought they would, and look, they're doing poorly."), because it causes your honest pride to look like arrogance. Smugness. Perhaps even disdain for your fellow publishers.
I mean, I think E.N. Publishing, and I in particular, put out some very good books. But unless another publisher actively asked for critique, I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with their product. I learned my lesson about that back in '02 when I pissed off Mongoose.
However, to address the argument from a page ago. It's one thing to be proud of your talents ("We put out the best products!"). That's fine. That's good spirit.
It is bad, however, to combine a statement of pride with one of criticism ("Other publishers didn't write adventures like we thought they would, and look, they're doing poorly."), because it causes your honest pride to look like arrogance. Smugness. Perhaps even disdain for your fellow publishers.
I mean, I think E.N. Publishing, and I in particular, put out some very good books. But unless another publisher actively asked for critique, I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with their product. I learned my lesson about that back in '02 when I pissed off Mongoose.
trancejeremy
Adventurer
Wow, what an arrogant post by that guy. Makes me really glad I don't usually buy WOTC books. Which I do mostly because of lack of quality. But now I won't buy them because of him.
Sure, they beat other companies in looks most of the time. But in content, usually they are worse. The 3.0 splatbooks for the various classes were as bad as any d20 product put out, save perhaps the stuff by FFE and the Foundation. And if the original Star Wars was so great, why did they have to put out a revised version so quickly?
The quality of the rest of the supplements is largely debatable. I don't like them, but others do... and don't even get me started about their d20 Modern stuff.
The reason you don't see so many adventures, is the companies that put out adventures only largely folded. Only Goodman Games and Necromancer have survived. And even Necromancer shifted to bigger adventures. Presumably because the profit margin on each one is better. Most of their smaller adventures now come in very limited runs.
ANd not only is the profit margin small on adventures, they have competition from WOTC, or rather, D&D. Technically it's Paizo, but since they have the D&D license, it's effectively WOTC. How can you compete with a product that delivers what, 3-4 adventures for $8 or so? You can't, if you are a small company, unless you do what Goodman did and mimic the old classic modules (and do a good job of it). Necromancer has the backing of White Wolf
Sure, they beat other companies in looks most of the time. But in content, usually they are worse. The 3.0 splatbooks for the various classes were as bad as any d20 product put out, save perhaps the stuff by FFE and the Foundation. And if the original Star Wars was so great, why did they have to put out a revised version so quickly?
The quality of the rest of the supplements is largely debatable. I don't like them, but others do... and don't even get me started about their d20 Modern stuff.
The reason you don't see so many adventures, is the companies that put out adventures only largely folded. Only Goodman Games and Necromancer have survived. And even Necromancer shifted to bigger adventures. Presumably because the profit margin on each one is better. Most of their smaller adventures now come in very limited runs.
ANd not only is the profit margin small on adventures, they have competition from WOTC, or rather, D&D. Technically it's Paizo, but since they have the D&D license, it's effectively WOTC. How can you compete with a product that delivers what, 3-4 adventures for $8 or so? You can't, if you are a small company, unless you do what Goodman did and mimic the old classic modules (and do a good job of it). Necromancer has the backing of White Wolf
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
CharlesRyan said:
If it does, I'd be amazed.
Good post, though.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
trancejeremy said:
Because Lucas Licensing required them to as part of the promotion for Episode II.
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