D&D 5E (2014) Charm, the evil spells

[Voadam]

Ironically, if you believe some old school blogs, the reason fireball is 3rd level and not higher is that it did expand uncontrollably and destroy all the treasure (remember those item saving throw tables in the 1e DMG?). Cone of Cold was invented as a fireball without this disadvantage, and when the treasure-destruction was removed in the transition to CRPGs (which the computer power of the 1980s wouldn't have been able to handle on top of the other stuff they were trying to keep track of), people got used to mages spamming fireball and influenced the idea of mages as glass-cannon artillery. The whole course of RPGs was affected by a single overpowered spell.

That seems a bit of a silly conclusion considering that wizards were artillery from the start and fireball and lightning bolt got used regularly in D&D even with treasure destroying possibilities. AD&D mages and 3rd level fireball grew out of OD&D mages and 3rd level fireball which grew out of Chainmail, where mages were actually artillery replacements in fantasy battles.

In early very deadly editions of D&D if facing a tough monster or a horde of monsters, killing them can be priority #1 over not risking the loot they carry.

OD&D 3rd level fireball:

"Fire Ball: A missile which springs from the finger of the Magic-User. It explodes with a burst radius of 2” (slightly larger than specified in CHAINMAIL). In a confined space the Fire Ball will generally conform to the shape of the space (elongate or whatever). The damage caused by the missile will be in proportion to the level of its user. A 6th-level Magic-User throws a 6-die missile, a 7th a 7-die missile, and so on. (Note that Fire Balls from Scrolls (see Book II) and Wand are 6-die missiles and those from Staves are 8-die missiles. Duration: 1 turn. Range: 24”"

Chainmail fireballs

"Missiles: A Wizard can throw either of two types of missile (select which before play begins). A fire ball, equal in hit area to the large catapult hit area, or a lightning bolt, 3/4" wide by 6" long, with an attack value equal to a heavy field gun, are the two missile types employed."

 

[SkidAce]

But only emotionally? It doesn't actually say that. 'Acquaintance' by definition implies familiarity. So is are the target's memory altered in a way that they actually think they know the caster?

In this case, we don't get into the weeds.

"This person is the kinda friend I like" and then treating them that way until there is a reason not to is enough for us.

edit: typo

 

[Maxperson]

But only emotionally? It doesn't actually say that. 'Acquaintance' by definition implies familiarity. So is are the target's memory altered in a way that they actually think that they know the caster?

No memories are altered. It expressly says, "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance." You just consider the person to be the same as a friendly acquaintance because magic.

 

[SkidAce]

The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.

So for the duration, albeit illogical, they treat them as such.

Then they come to their senses and say "duh"., for all the reason you mention.."Wait, I never met that guy before.

 

[Voadam]

But only emotionally? It doesn't actually say that. 'Acquaintance' by definition implies familiarity. So is are the target's memory altered in a way that they actually think they know the caster?

"If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."

I think it can be read either that they think you are a friendly acquaintance (maybe one they just don't remember where from) or that they treat you as they would a friendly acquaintance.

I would not read into it that the spell creates memories.

 

[Maxperson]

I think it can be read either that they think you are a friendly acquaintance (maybe one they just don't remember where from) or that they treat you as they would a friendly acquaintance.

I don't think it's the former. It's only a 1st level spell and you know you were charmed at the end. Altering your mind that much seems like more than a level 1 spell could do.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Also, I'd like to point out that PC's can be targeted by such effects, so I think it somewhat important to be able to describe how being under such influence feels to the person and how it limits their cognitive capabilities.

 

[Voadam]

Well, that's insane if you interpret this to be absolute. I think it is just for ease of gameplay so that you don't need to worry about every separate item every time someone is targeted by a fire spell, or having people argue that the target should take some ongoing damage from being on fire. But I say that if the hobgoblin is toast, hobgoblin's cool designer threads are toast as well.

Or you can take it literally and it is part of how a lot of magic interacts with creatures.

The meta reason would be ease of game play and such, but the internal logic of the world narratively can work.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Or you can take it literally and it is part of how a lot of magic interacts with creatures.

The meta reason would be ease of game play and such, but the internal logic of the world narratively can work.

The spell burns a person, the spell burns clothes left on the on the floor. The spell however doesn't burn those same clothes if they're worn by the person burned by the spell. I'm sorry, I'm fine with magic being weird, but this is more inane rather than whimsical.

 

[Faolyn]

Well, that's insane if you interpret this to be absolute. I think it is just for ease of gameplay so that you don't need to worry about every separate item every time someone is targeted by a fire spell, or having people argue that the target should take some ongoing damage from being on fire. But I say that if the hobgoblin is toast, hobgoblin's cool designer threads are toast as well.

The problem is if the PCs can do this to monsters then the same thing can happen to them as well--and since there's no such thing as an item saving throw anymore, you either have to invent one or track the AC and hp of every object the PCs are carrying. Because they're not going to be OK with magic randomly destroying their gear when the spell description doesn't say it does.

It should be said that I'm not against the idea of item saving throws. I'm just not entirely sure how to go about inventing a system for such a thing.