I think if you ask most people, they will agree that consciously and repeatedly breaking the rules of a game is inherently wrong. The burden of proof falls on the one making the outrageous claim, and in this case the claim to be proven is that "one person breaking the rules while all the others follow the rules is an acceptable way to play D&D".
Cheating cheaters
I think if you ask most people, they will agree that consciously and repeatedly breaking the rules of a game is inherently wrong. The burden of proof falls on the one making the outrageous claim, and in this case the claim to be proven is that "one person breaking the rules while all the others follow the rules is an acceptable way to play D&D".
ppaladin123
Adventurer
Two main problems with cheating that I see:
1. Glory-hogging. The player always hits, always crits, always succeeds on improbably difficult stunts. The other players, who are playing by a different set of rules, may feel overshadowed and useless. Some may have spent a great deal of time building their character, selecting feats and powers, questing for powerful weaponry, etc. in an effort to make their characters powerful, useful and heroic. All that effort on their part is invalidated if just anybody (the cheater) can effortlessly slay monsters. Maybe being a hero should be hard work.
2. Tension. Some players (myself included) enjoy the tension that comes with an epic battle, the possibility that they might actually lose this fight. That sense of danger pushes them to choose their actions carefully, to plan for contingencies. What am I going to do if my allies fall? Will player X come through for us? That tension is at least partly erased by a cheating player. Our hearts don't stop momentarily when the cheater rolls; of course they will succeed. The cheater is nigh-invincible; there is little chance they will fall. We are not going to have to initiate desperate plan X; battles become routine.
Now if nobody has a problem with this...that's fine. I think pure narrative games can be fun if everyone agrees to them. That's the problem though...the DM and other players have not agreed to this. The cheater strips others of their choice.
1. Glory-hogging. The player always hits, always crits, always succeeds on improbably difficult stunts. The other players, who are playing by a different set of rules, may feel overshadowed and useless. Some may have spent a great deal of time building their character, selecting feats and powers, questing for powerful weaponry, etc. in an effort to make their characters powerful, useful and heroic. All that effort on their part is invalidated if just anybody (the cheater) can effortlessly slay monsters. Maybe being a hero should be hard work.
2. Tension. Some players (myself included) enjoy the tension that comes with an epic battle, the possibility that they might actually lose this fight. That sense of danger pushes them to choose their actions carefully, to plan for contingencies. What am I going to do if my allies fall? Will player X come through for us? That tension is at least partly erased by a cheating player. Our hearts don't stop momentarily when the cheater rolls; of course they will succeed. The cheater is nigh-invincible; there is little chance they will fall. We are not going to have to initiate desperate plan X; battles become routine.
Now if nobody has a problem with this...that's fine. I think pure narrative games can be fun if everyone agrees to them. That's the problem though...the DM and other players have not agreed to this. The cheater strips others of their choice.
nerfherder
Explorer
I think your idea sounds worth trying - by reducing her opportunity to cheat she may get used to playing normally and find she still enjoys it.
The one adult I know that used to cheat on dice rolls was a long-time friend of a few of us in the group, so we just shamed him into playing straight - probably not applicable in your situation.
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
I agree with you completely. I think you've already come up with the best course of action. She is essentially violating the social contract of the group. Having the group enforce that social contract with increased oversight (watching her rolls, especially with the cheering aspect) could help. It won't take away the reason why she does it (which nobody but she knows - if she even knows why), and probably won't make her not do it as soon as that oversight slips, but it probably will make the other players feel a little better about it. As long as it's not called out into the open (unless it absolutely needs to), the offending player probably won't have a problem with it either. Especially since she seems to be playing a bit of cat-and-mouse with it already (you know - catch me if you can mentality).
Merkuri
Explorer
I feel like the best way to solve the problem with a minimum of drama is to implement a new rule that everyone has to follow, like hanasays's rolling area, that makes cheating impossible, or at least very hard. You're not calling out that player specifically, but by making an area in the middle of the table the designated "rolling area" and saying that all rolls outside the area must be rerolled should be enough to stop the behavior. It's basically a subtle way to say, "I know you're cheating, and I don't like it, so stop."
If you implement a rule that prevents cheating you're probably going to get one of two reactions to the problem player, depending on their maturity level. She could either throw some sort of tantrum and storm out (in which case she created the drama, not you, and it probably would've happened eventually), or she will probably just accept the new situation and stop cheating. Like others have said before, she's likely cheating just because she can get away with it. If you make it difficult for her she'll probably just stop with no fuss.
If she finds some way to continue to cheat after you've implemented this rule then it might be time to take her aside and have a heart-to-heart. Either that or just accept her cheating and live with it, because at that point she's probably not going to stop unless you flat-out tell her to stop.
TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
...or, you could simply accept her as she is and go on with your game...
--but only if you're all confined to a mental institution. In reality, you and all of the other players should start cheating!
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Wow. You've almost swayed me to the side of the darkness.
Seriously, though, anyone who views cheating as a self-esteem boost really needs to learn to deal with failure. RPGs are a great way to experiment with risk and failure in a "safe" environment. By forcing her to play by the rules, you may actually be helping her grow (as opposed to enabling her escapist reflexes to ruin yet another aspect of her life).
But even if you're not, and all you do is pimp-slap her crying inner child, that's still good for the health of your group's culture. I don't tolerate cheaters when I play or DM: the game is a game, and it has rules, and you succeed or fail by your choices within those rules.
Cheers, -- N
fissionessence
First Post
If I were a player in a game where I knew one of the other players was regularly cheating, I would be pretty upset. I would be doubly upset if I knew the DM was aware of this cheating and didn't care or wasn't doing anything proactive about it.
When I have a chance to succeed, and another player basically always succeeds, my character's usefulness, cool factor and power level lowers dramatically. In one campaign where I am a player, I've had fairly bad combat rolls for three sessions in a row, missing almost consistently. I already feel somewhat useless compared to the other characters because of this, but I go with the flow. However, if I knew that another player was doing considerably better than I was because of cheating, that would be really upsetting; why should my character suck for following the rules when another player can just break them and be godly?
Seriously, from a player point of view, I'm almost offended by those who suggested the cheating player's actions are in any way tolerable.
What I wrote above pertains to perpetual cheaters. If a player has an unlucky streak, and secretly cheats on a couple rolls to get back into the fight and start having fun again, this wouldn't bother me from a DM or player perspective. [sarcasm](Maybe I should even consider this for myself if my bad luck streak keeps up!)[/sarcasm]
Perhaps one way to confront the player is to feign an acceptance of her cheating as a play style, but explain that it does not mesh with the play style of the rest of the group because of the way it negatively impacts the relative potency of other players' characters.
You might even suggest that no longer cheating could enhance her enjoyment of the game play experience because of the fun derived from the additional tension. Keep this comment in reserve, though; it certainly isn't something to base an argument on.
~ fissionessence
When I have a chance to succeed, and another player basically always succeeds, my character's usefulness, cool factor and power level lowers dramatically. In one campaign where I am a player, I've had fairly bad combat rolls for three sessions in a row, missing almost consistently. I already feel somewhat useless compared to the other characters because of this, but I go with the flow. However, if I knew that another player was doing considerably better than I was because of cheating, that would be really upsetting; why should my character suck for following the rules when another player can just break them and be godly?
Seriously, from a player point of view, I'm almost offended by those who suggested the cheating player's actions are in any way tolerable.
What I wrote above pertains to perpetual cheaters. If a player has an unlucky streak, and secretly cheats on a couple rolls to get back into the fight and start having fun again, this wouldn't bother me from a DM or player perspective. [sarcasm](Maybe I should even consider this for myself if my bad luck streak keeps up!)[/sarcasm]
Perhaps one way to confront the player is to feign an acceptance of her cheating as a play style, but explain that it does not mesh with the play style of the rest of the group because of the way it negatively impacts the relative potency of other players' characters.
You might even suggest that no longer cheating could enhance her enjoyment of the game play experience because of the fun derived from the additional tension. Keep this comment in reserve, though; it certainly isn't something to base an argument on.
~ fissionessence
If his players have complained, it seems that the majority of the players are united as to Not considering this situation to be fun. I've been in groups before that had problems with char sheets/scores/abilities changing from game to game... only the two who were cheating seemed to find it fun... I'm not going to judge the fact that they found it to be fun... I will however feel free to judge the fact that they were failing to live up to/follow the guidelines set down for the game and the trust that had been placed in them by the rest of the group.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
I'm generally a very non-confrontational person but the only times I've ever thrown people out of my game have been for cheating. Consistant, blatant, casual cheating in everything from rolling dice to how XP is figured, treasure is divided, or (in point-based systems) how a PC was built.
It's not a playstyle choice, it's not a symptom of some 'darkness', it's damn cheating and you shouldn't have to put up with it. If cheating is what they find fun, then yeah, I'll judge 'em for it; I'll be judge, jury and executioner. Their fun is automatically everyone else's non-fun. They're cheaters and there's no two ways about it. They toss people out of school for it, politicians careers are destroyed because of it, they make athletes resign and pay back millions or go to jail, etc etc. Tolerating it cheapens and lessens the experience for everyone. Yes, it does 'hurt' everyone both by her breaking the rules of the game and getting away with it, and by their tolerance of it. To tolerate it is just as silly as saying 'hey, stealing from the bank is OK, everyone has insurance for it so no-one really gets hurt'.
What does her best friend have to say about this? Is this person also aware of her cheating and what do they feel about it? Have you broached the subject of 'If I throw X out of the game for being a craven liar, what will you do?'
I hope the 'cheering her on' thing works and keeps people's eyes on her dice but if it doesn't then you need to sit her down and tell her straight to her face that you've noticed a problem and not to be a filthy cheater. If that doesn't work, boot her. I don't see what more you can do.
It's not a playstyle choice, it's not a symptom of some 'darkness', it's damn cheating and you shouldn't have to put up with it. If cheating is what they find fun, then yeah, I'll judge 'em for it; I'll be judge, jury and executioner. Their fun is automatically everyone else's non-fun. They're cheaters and there's no two ways about it. They toss people out of school for it, politicians careers are destroyed because of it, they make athletes resign and pay back millions or go to jail, etc etc. Tolerating it cheapens and lessens the experience for everyone. Yes, it does 'hurt' everyone both by her breaking the rules of the game and getting away with it, and by their tolerance of it. To tolerate it is just as silly as saying 'hey, stealing from the bank is OK, everyone has insurance for it so no-one really gets hurt'.
What does her best friend have to say about this? Is this person also aware of her cheating and what do they feel about it? Have you broached the subject of 'If I throw X out of the game for being a craven liar, what will you do?'
I hope the 'cheering her on' thing works and keeps people's eyes on her dice but if it doesn't then you need to sit her down and tell her straight to her face that you've noticed a problem and not to be a filthy cheater. If that doesn't work, boot her. I don't see what more you can do.
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