Cheating - who cares?

[Aus_Snow]

I think the 22% is probably just more honest then the 72%.

I think that you are most likely wrong in assuming that. Just my 2c, YMMV, etc. etc. etc.

Considering that it's an anonymous poll, what real incentive is there for anyone to be dishonest with their voting on this?

I really can't imagine why cheating would be tolerated especially amoung friends.

And yes, quite.

 

[James Heard]

Considering that it's an anonymous poll, what real incentive is there for anyone to be dishonest with their voting on this?

Very few people like to admit they're as rotten and self-obsessed as they naturally are, or even aware that they are, because to admit that you're not always a good person, or to admit that other people aren't often very good, is a scary thing. This isn't to say that people are all bad, but they're people and people lie. They lie to each other sometimes, but primarily people lie to themselves.

Besides, when people are truly the saints they portray themselves to be, they mostly just ruin it by usually by sanctimonious, condescending and rude about it - suggesting that if you haven't done anything wrong in your life you could have done it just so you could save up being a jerk to the people who have.

Meh. </cynicism humor> I love you guys. *sniff*

 

[Aus_Snow]

Very few people like to admit they're as rotten and self-obsessed as they naturally are, or even aware that they are, because to admit that you're not always a good person, or to admit that other people aren't often very good, is a scary thing. This isn't to say that people are all bad, but they're people and people lie. They lie to each other sometimes, but primarily people lie to themselves.

Besides, when people are truly the saints they portray themselves to be, they mostly just ruin it by usually by sanctimonious, condescending and rude about it - suggesting that if you haven't done anything wrong in your life you could have done it just so you could save up being a jerk to the people who have.

No-one in this thread has portrayed themselves, through voting or posting, to be a "saint" or anything like it, that I've seen, at any point.

Not saying I disagree with a large part of what you said there (I don't, actually), just that it's not particularly applicable to the case in point.

After all, it's not exactly "scary" - surely - to anonymously click a button indicating that you (i.e., just some random person) don't care about minor fudging in games with friends, or something to that effect. It's not a button labelled "Yes I am a damned liar, and I cheat whenever I can" - in fact it's not even related to cheating, in the personal sense. It's only related to cheating in the sense that "if others do it, do you care?"

 

[iwatt]

Just a random observation, but the poll results so far (22% - 72%) are very close to the results in the "Have you ever stolen an RPG book?" thread a week or two ago.

Significant, or just coincidence?

:\ Nice way to derrail the discussion. I'm not sure (haven't had my morning coffee yet) but I think I've just been accused theft. :\ It's like in the other thread, when I got accused of not caring becuase the cheater was a woman :\ wtf?

GSHamster, correlation (which I'm not sure exists) does not prove causality or a connection.

I'd be more interested in observing how close this poll's number match those of people who prefer point-buy for stat-generation because they require a "level" playing field. Isn't issuing blanket statements fun? :\

 

[Piratecat]

Deep breaths, everyone! Don't ascribe hostile intent that might not be purposeful, and for goodness sake don't make cheap swipes at people with cleverly disguised insults. This is a controversial topic that people feel strongly about, so of course there are going to be heightened sensibilities. We're asking that you err on the side of relaxed discussion, not emotional debate.

In other words, no one be a jerk to anyone else while you post your own opinion.

 

[Li Shenron]

I can understand major cheating more than minor cheating... what's the point? And it's a game, you don't gain anything from winning and don't lose anything from losing the game.

Actually more serious forms of cheating (being unfaithful, stealing, breaking the law) alhough they are horrible they actually can be understood (not justified, only understood). But cheating at a game really makes no sense... if you need cheating, it's best not to play. Eventually if someone cheats on a roll that would kill her character (major cheating), it's ok. I mean, no it's not ok but at least it has a good motivation: having to lose a favourite character maybe forever, having to go throught the whol PC creation process... Cheating here and there on a roll or on character build/bookkeping instead is worse, because the only reason is actually being convinced that you would lose if you don't cheat.

That said, I definitely wouldn't break a friendship over this! If I catch a player cheating at our table I don't react badly, but rather I'd react with a "Come on..." and with a laugh.

 

[jasper]

Care
If they going to cheat at game where just for fun, what else are they going to be cheating at when it gets serious. Sorry if you cheat I don’t want to dm with you. And most of time I will not game at all with you.
True story while in the Army and waiting to move out we started a game of poker with no money in pot. A sgt threw down a flush. We all folded. He then laughed, spread the cards out. 4 hearts 1 diamond. Now if this goober is going to cheat when nothing is on the table, I know he will cheat when money is on the table. And he wondered why I warned all the newbies not to play with him.

There is NO MINOR CHEATING! Either BE NICE or get treated not nice. And before Dm can fudge because their job description allows them to ignore hard results to make adjustments to improve game play.

In all times where I called a person on cheating and the cheating did not stop, I am not longer friends or game mates with that person either by my will or their will. Now for years I was an addict to D&D and would play with goobers but I find I enjoy life and the game better if I stick to my guns. I play less often but enjoy the game play more.

No swrushing we are not saying cheating = severe repercussions. We saying the cheater can continue to cheat and we will not game with him but will see you on taco night, bad movie night, any game night we know you won’t cheat on night.

 

[swrushing]

Cheating here and there on a roll or on character build/bookkeping instead is worse, because the only reason is actually being convinced that you would lose if you don't cheat.

That is not the only reason.

It might seem easy to think of others (particularly those you disagree with) as being mono-focused, one dimensional, but they really aren't usually that simple.

 

[swrushing]

No swrushing we are not saying cheating = severe repercussions. We saying the cheater can continue to cheat and we will not game with him but will see you on taco night, bad movie night, any game night we know you won’t cheat on night.

Well, i guess context isn't necessarily an automatic thing.

When i say severe consequences, i am not meaning in the scope of "real world totality."

Kicking someone out of a game isn't severe when one considers it in comparison to things outside the game, like murder, incarceration and the like.

But within the context of the game, the gaming, the most severe consequence is kicking them from the game.

Sorry if the context did not get across. I do not mean to imply that being kicked out of some guys RPG game is a severe consequence when compared to all the other worse things that happen in life. Its hardly a blip there. I only mean to say that in terms of "how to solve a percieved problem in our RPG sessions", kicking someone to the curb is severe.

Sorry if that was confusing. Hopefully we are on the same page now.

 

[Frozen DM]

at this point, cheating has lost meaning for this discussion, if we go with your new definitions.

the whole debate has been some saying cheating is wrong period and others saying if the cheating doesn't hurt its not a serious issue, not a problem.

well, you seem to now what to slip into the definition of cheating not just breaking the rules but also "and doing harm"

its like asking if railroading is always bad and including "causes bad results" in the definition of railroading.

not much sense in discussing whether or not cheating that leads to other bad results is good or bad.

in the other thread, i even used the basketball analogy where certain fouls in basketball require not only the action but the case of "gains an advantage" to be considered a foul to describe the type of "cheating" we are describing as OK. Still got hammered by the hard liners of the "hit the door periond" crowd.

if your view is that cheating that doesn't cause problems isn't cheating, then we are close to agreement.

I think I'll concede this point. I do think doing harm is part of the problem, and does probably derail this discussion from the original topic of "minor" cheating to "major" cheating. Let me see if I can get back on topic (hard I know... I ramble)

I think I'll use the following as my definition of minor cheating, just so I can try and get my points relevant to the original purpose of the thread: Minor cheating is a case where the player's actions do not upset the harmony of the game (ie isn't blatantly ruining the experience for other players) and where the results of the cheat do not significantly alter the outcome of a challenge, problem or encounter.

So as something I would consider to be minor cheating: A player, in the midst of a random encounter that has no real bearing on the overall plot or story, will fudge a die roll in order to get a sucessful hit on an opponent, possibly killing the monster 1 round earlier than normal. Not a huge deal in my opinion and has no significant impact on the game.

there was no reason IN CHARACTER for my guy to not just take out the fell beast. My character wanted it dead. My character was in position to kill it. making my character "find a way to not attack and kill" would be metagaming. instead i simply had him miss, when i knew it wouldn't hurt anyone and would likely help someone else.

I do find it odd that someone would object to meta-gaming as a reason to perform an action, but would fudge a die roll and see it as more acceptable. In both cases it is the PLAYER using the rules system and their out-of-character knowledge in order to influence their character's actions. I'd say in the above example, this is just as much meta-gaming as deciding to take any other action, it simply compounds the problem by lying about a die roll. But again, I wouldn't consider claiming a worse die result as being cheating anyway.

Well, let me ask you, is this same situation played out legally BETTER if it wasn't arrived at by cheating? If he had just rolled and succeeded at killing the beast the instant before the paladin gains justice, isn't the same "paladin let down" going to occur? is it any better if the reason your guy gets the shot is that his character is better mazximized than the paladin due to your being more versed with the system... would the paladin be less let down if its just another example of your "surperior character build stepping on his toes AGAIN?
would that make it less of a problem?

Yes it would. And this is simply because my players accept that they are playing a game with a system of randomization that can influence actions. In this case, cheating is an elimination of the random element for a specific purpose (whether malicious or not). When a player cheats in order to kill the monster he is saying to the group "I want to be better than you even if I have to break the rules. My personal satisfaction or goals takes precendence over the game, the group and the agreements we made when playing the game". Had he simply killed the beast because of a lucky roll than there is no negative sentiment attached, it was just luck of the roll.


But just to get back to the original thread again. My biggest reason for being against even minor cheating amongst friends is, it creates a situation where it can easily escalate into more severe forms of cheating. Even if minor cheating doesn't cause problems, it's a gateway to worse behaviour. I believe it would be easier for such a player to justify cheating on a larger scale if their minor cheats have been ignored. After all, if fudging a 10 to a 15 is acceptable once a game session, why isn't fudging a 15 to a natural 20? or doing it twice a game session? As I said earlier, slippery slope.

Additionally, and I've seen this happen in my own game, players who are known to fudge dice, are always believed to fudge the dice, even if they don't. There is a level of distrust that eventually develops over time, and it is made worse if the cheating escalates. It annoys me that I now have 1 player in my group who is always under suspicion of cheating, even if he does get lucky. And I think it even ruins his enjoyment of the game a bit since now, when he does score a natural 20, everyone is immediately suspicious. We're all still friends, and he isn't being booted from the game because it still isn't worth losing a friendship over, but it is an annoyance I would be better off without.