D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes the 2024 update of Indomitable looks unbelievably good (if a tad overpowered) - I think that alone makes me believe the dragon might be in trouble again.



Well you get Advantage...unless that has changed as well?



Well unless you are stacking multiples of those a typical character non-proficient in Charisma Saves, is still going to need around a 20 to save.

Wait, have you been making these arguments without even being aware of the changes to the classes, feats and spells?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I may do a test thread later tonight to see how the new Gold Dragon preforms against a level 20. The party should be very basic, but they should also still win.

 

[Stalker0]

So... what? Every monster should be designed to drop at least one PC to zero hp as the first and only encounter of the day, ignoring how people actually run the game? That seems like a recipe for disaster.

I do think this is a valid design goal for monsters above CR20 (at least for the weaker hps of the party). I mean getting a PC to 0 isn't all that bad at those levels (lots of ways 0 hp = 1 hp), they have lots of healign to get them back, and again even if they die....a speed bump at that point.

Its not something for all monster design, but for the baddest of the bad the gloves should come off.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I do think this is a valid design goal for monsters above CR20 (at least for the weaker hps of the party). I mean getting a PC to 0 isn't all that bad at those levels (lots of ways 0 hp = 1 hp), they have lots of healign to get them back, and again even if they die....a speed bump at that point.

Its not something for all monster design, but for the baddest of the bad the gloves should come off.

Sorry, was a little inaccurate in my post, since I've been in a long discussion with Upper_Krust. They had an earlier point that the Ancient Gold needed to drop a PC to 0 every single turn, or with a single action with their fire breath. I think a single action AOE dropping someone with the average damage is a bit too much, and especially if it isn't the only encounter of the day and PC resources like HP at not maxed.

Frankly though, this dragon CAN drop PCs in a round or two pretty reliably. If you just spam six Rends (which is the outside of the Lair limit), then the Dragon can output an average of 168 damage, assuming all six hit. Any d8 HD class @level 17 with a con of +4 is looking at 144 average hp (excluding feats, boons, ect). D10's are sitting at 174 with the same assumptions.

Now, I think focus firing six attacks at a single target and doing nothing else is a bit... boring and unfun, but they CAN do it.

 

[Sulicius]

Alright! I tested the new Ancient Gold Dragon today against a kitted out group of 3 20th level characters. I rolled up a list of totally random itemsbased on the magic item tracker sheet. The PC's also had most resources reduced by 1/3rd to simulate some adventuring beforehand.

We had a Circle of the Sea Druid, a Battle Master Fighter and a Dragon Sorcerer.

The new banish was absolutely devastating, but since the fighter could auto-pass the save with the new Indomitable, she stayed in the fight. With two action surges and 4 attacks per action, she pretty much took down the dragon on her own. A potion of invulnerability, broom of flying and the Foresight spell allowed her to shine. I honestly don't even remember what the rest of the party did. It was very easy for all of them to have resistance to fire damage, so the golden oldie wasn't that effective.

It looks like even with the new stat block, even with the new encounter building rules, an ancient dragon has no chance against a tier 4 party. Using the Lazy Encounter Benchmark I could have fielded 2 of them, which obviously would make them win just because of those banishes.

The stat block still lacks damage. 28 damage per attack just doesn't cut it.

So we also tested Flee! Mortals!'s Fortzaantirilys, another CR24 dragon. This one was intended for a full adventuring party, but only of level 16 according to their own encounter building rules. The monster put up wayyy more of a fight than the other, this time against 4 LVL19 PC's. The players seemed to have enjoyed this fight more aswell. For me, as a DM, I don't like how finicky FM stat blocks are, but I can't argue with the results.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Wait, have you been making these arguments without even being aware of the changes to the classes, feats and spells?

Of course I have read the updates, but I'm not the 'memory master'...

1. I haven't got to play with 2024 as yet.
2. I know there is power creep but that Indomitable update is crazy strong.
3. According to WotC, 2014 is compatible with 2024 and vice versa.

Enjoying this discussion Chaosmancer, won't have time to respond to your longer post today (gf's birthday), but will get to it tomorrow. ;-)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Great work Sulicius in doing a proper playtest.

I wanted to get the Flee Mortals hardback. But with shipping to the UK it was 140 dollars. Good to know the monsters pack a proper punch, might grab the pdf if I can't snag a copy on ebay.

 

[dave2008]

@Upper_Krust , I wouldn't make a big effort to run out an get that book. I don't know how @Sulicius ran their fight with Fortzaantirilys, but the Flee Mortals dragon actually does less DPR than the Ancient Gold and has less AC (a little more HP though). Its only big advantage is that its fire damage ignores resistance. Flee mortals is also tactically less interesting IMO too. I am guessing the only reason it was more effective was the ignoring fire resistance. Which is a thing I guess.

Spoiler: Fortzaantirilys

Alright! I tested the new Ancient Gold Dragon today against a kitted out group of 3 20th level characters. I rolled up a list of totally random itemsbased on the magic item tracker sheet. The PC's also had most resources reduced by 1/3rd to simulate some adventuring beforehand.

We had a Circle of the Sea Druid, a Battle Master Fighter and a Dragon Sorcerer.

The new banish was absolutely devastating, but since the fighter could auto-pass the save with the new Indomitable, she stayed in the fight. With two action surges and 4 attacks per action, she pretty much took down the dragon on her own. A potion of invulnerability, broom of flying and the Foresight spell allowed her to shine. I honestly don't even remember what the rest of the party did. It was very easy for all of them to have resistance to fire damage, so the golden oldie wasn't that effective.

It looks like even with the new stat block, even with the new encounter building rules, an ancient dragon has no chance against a tier 4 party. Using the Lazy Encounter Benchmark I could have fielded 2 of them, which obviously would make them win just because of those banishes.

The stat block still lacks damage. 28 damage per attack just doesn't cut it.

So we also tested Flee! Mortals!'s Fortzaantirilys, another CR24 dragon. This one was intended for a full adventuring party, but only of level 16 according to their own encounter building rules. The monster put up wayyy more of a fight than the other, this time against 4 LVL19 PC's. The players seemed to have enjoyed this fight more aswell. For me, as a DM, I don't like how finicky FM stat blocks are, but I can't argue with the results.

Great work Sulicius in doing a proper playtest.

I wanted to get the Flee Mortals hardback. But with shipping to the UK it was 140 dollars. Good to know the monsters pack a proper punch, might grab the pdf if I can't snag a copy on ebay.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks Dave buddy. Yes the damage looks low in Flee Mortals as well. Not sure why the game designer obsession with extremely low 2 dice attack damage for Gargantuan creatures. Baffling.

 

[dave2008]

Thanks Dave buddy. Yes the damage looks low in Flee Mortals as well. Not sure why the game designer obsession with extremely low 2 dice attack damage for Gargantuan creatures. Baffling.

It seems particularly contained to dragons too. It feels like WotC did it in the 2014 MM (for some unknown reason) and everyone just decided to copy it. Whenever I look at monster book, I check out the dragons and I know they have phoned it in if they copy this type of damage.