D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Look, I know where you are going with this, but you need more information:

Since you know where I was going with this, you could make your own assumptions. But I gladly answer your questions.

• Are the all the nails on end with point up, or just laying on the ground

Of course.

• How thick are the nails

Normal nails.

• How tall are the nails

All the same length.

• Am I wearing shoes or barefoot

Shooes with a thin flat sole. But actually does not matter.

• What is the spacing of the nails

That your foot can rest on them.

• What type of nails: cut nails, 10 penny, rail road spikes, finish nails, roofing nails, etc.

Thin metal spikes (1mm diameter, pointy end)

• Are all the nails the same, or do they differ?

All the same.

 

[InkTide]

If you can breathe quickly a second time, you have another chance to put those who made their saves last round to sleep.

True, which is why I said it was "spending an action to force any targets that saved/avoided to make the save again, and meaningless otherwise" two sentences later.

But remember, the only cooldown change is a split - the control breath and the damaging breath aren't actually on reduced cooldowns. The minimum possible "turns per control breath" and "turns per damage breath" is still exactly the same, it's just not "turns per [x] breath" now. So sleep breath still has a recharge of 5-6, assuming "twice as much breath" is accurate (albeit dubious to use as a justification for a nerf).

so it looks like things are point to nerfed breath weapon damage

I just checked, and this is actually exactly the same as the 2014 ancient gold dragon breath weapon. So I may have been tilting at a windmill, unless chromatics have been buffed across the board for damage despite also gaining new control options. Still a little worried about a possible years-long pro-chromatic (and if that interview is anything to go by, explicitly pro-blue) bias looming over the RAW horizon. As much as I like for dragon types to be distinct, I don't like the idea of a huge mechanical effectiveness disparity between them, except perhaps for very specific bad matchups.

Unless the bronze dragon clean sweeps everybody as the strongest dragon ever, no contest, in which case it would be perfectly balanced because that one's my favorite. /s

thousand nails

"Rules aren't Physics" is RAW as of the 2024 DMG. Literally with that wording. D&D rules explicitly run on vibes-based physics unless the DM says otherwise. It's a game, not a simulation.

Also, it's just a surface area trick question assuming a constant force and suitable nail tips. If you step down with enough force, the increased surface area is not enough to prevent the nails from stabbing you. Similarly, if the points are sharp enough, you'll lower the stabbin' threshold force substantially. General use nails are not that sharp, as the force you're applying while nailing it is more than enough to push apart something porous like wood with a relatively blunt edge. Most of what you're doing is overcoming friction on the sides of the nail after the first hit if you're doing things right (that's what holds it in).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

True, which is why I said it was "spending an action to force any targets that saved/avoided to make the save again, and meaningless otherwise" two sentences later.

But remember, the only cooldown change is a split - the control breath and the damaging breath aren't actually on reduced cooldowns. The minimum possible "turns per control breath" and "turns per damage breath" is still exactly the same, it's just not "turns per [x] breath" now. So sleep breath still has a recharge of 5-6, assuming "twice as much breath" is accurate (albeit dubious to use as a justification for a nerf).


I just checked, and this is actually exactly the same as the 2014 ancient gold dragon breath weapon. So I may have been tilting at a windmill, unless chromatics have been buffed across the board for damage despite also gaining new control options. Still a little worried about a possible years-long pro-chromatic (and if that interview is anything to go by, explicitly pro-blue) bias looming over the RAW horizon. As much as I like for dragon types to be distinct, I don't like the idea of a huge mechanical effectiveness disparity between them, except perhaps for very specific bad matchups.

Unless the bronze dragon clean sweeps everybody as the strongest dragon ever, no contest, in which case it would be perfectly balanced because that one's my favorite. /s


"Rules aren't Physics" is RAW as of the 2024 DMG. Literally with that wording. D&D rules explicitly run on vibes-based physics unless the DM says otherwise. It's a game, not a simulation.

No. This was exactly my point to the post I answered to.

Also, it's just a surface area trick question assuming a constant force and suitable nail tips. If you step down with enough force, the increased surface area is not enough to prevent the nails from stabbing you. Similarly, if the points are sharp enough, you'll lower the stabbin' threshold force substantially. General use nails are not that sharp, as the force you're applying while nailing it is more than enough to push apart something porous like wood with a relatively blunt edge. Most of what you're doing is overcoming friction on the sides of the nail after the first hit if you're doing things right (that's what holds it in).

Of course it is a "trick question". I admitted that when I posted it. But it drives home my point. Just because something looks more terrifying does not mean it is. A Fakir can easily lay down on a needle board. Because everyone can do it... but most people don't know that. Because intuitively 10000 nails seem more threatening than a single one.

I have done the experiment with a tomatoe and about 100 usual nails. Let the tomatoe fall from about half a meter.

Single nail drives right through the tomatoe. 100 nails don't pierce the skin.

 

[Upper_Krust]

You are overestimating the Gold Dragon. Monsters are not supposed to drop them so fast.

I disagree I think WotC are vastly underestimating Epic Tier PC's...yet again.

The CR 24 Dragon is supposedly a High (ie. Deadly threat) for 4 18th-level PCs and 5 17th-level characters
The CR 24 Dragon in its lair is supposedly a High/Deadly threat for 4 19th-level PCs and only slightly misses the mark as a High/Deadly threat for a group of 4 20th-level PCs.

In a nutshell it supposedly represents a Solo High/Deadly threat for Epic Tier PC's.

But Epic Tier PC's will laugh at that damage...and that's even 2014 build PC's BEFORE the Power Creep of the 2024 books.

To threaten Epic Tier PCs as a Solo monster you basically need to be dropping one such character a round! Otherwise this dragon (even with its 546 HP ) is dead in about two rounds, three tops with even 'vanilla' Epic PCs.

We need to see more still anyway

This is true, I agree.

We have not seen the Legendary Actions, they might be really strong. However, a dragon's bread and butter is its breath weapon and that Fire Breath is rubbish (it was rubbish damage back in 2014 and its even more rubbish now thanks to 2024 Power Creep). So if the Legendary Actions outshine the breath weapon, the latter just gets relegated to fourth or fifth choice attack strategy.

But who knows maybe one of the Legendary Actions is that the Dragon can combine its breath weapons (Fire + Weakness) which would be slightly better.

Yes the dragon can Banish (we have heard) - which is very effective if bordering on the least fun ability a monster can have.

Maybe its Attacks + Legendary Actions + Lair Action just about drags it up to where the damage should be but as it stands it looks wimpish, lots of epic characters will have access to Fire Resistance, just looks set up to get steamrolled.

Hopefully the full reveal proves me wrong.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ok. So just feel.

One of the largest, most powerful, signature monsters in the game hits with its bite attack and barely deals more damage than a 1st-level character with a Greatsword.

Can we have a degree of Verisimilitude here.

3*28 + breathbweapon feels threatening enough.

Not to Epic Tier PCs.

I was glancing over the 1st Edition Gold Dragon (for comparison). Its breath weapon likely would have killed most high level characters who failed a save. Now THAT'S threatening.

Mechanically, it appears, 5E 'Legendary' monsters have been completely nerfed to accommodate Legendary Actions. Its simply adding more monster turns to do the same amount of damage (in other words added complexity for little 'net' benefit).

I much preferred the idea of multiple Reactions for Boss monsters; but these Reactions would be individually less powerful than its actual attacks: the Reactions would be glancing blows, trip attacks and so forth that might combo with subsequent main attacks but were not meant to outshine them. The Reactions would be the monster 'reacting' to what the current PC attacker had just done to it, not just getting another action for its own sake.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

One of the largest, most powerful, signature monsters in the game hits with its bite attack and barely deals more damage than a 1st-level character with a Greatsword.

Can we have a degree of Verisimilitude here.

Does a Great sword wielder add fire damage?

Not to Epic Tier PCs.

Lets see the other half of the stat block first.
I have recently fought an enemy that dod not do a lot of damage but had a chance to charm or frighten with each attack. That was scary.

I was glancing over the 1st Edition Gold Dragon (for comparison). Its breath weapon likely would have killed most high level characters who failed a save. Now THAT'S threatening.

But high level characters in AD&D had a very high chance to save while high level 5e characters have not in general.

Mechanically, it appears, 5E 'Legendary' monsters have been completely nerfed to accommodate Legendary Actions. Its simply adding more monster turns to do the same amount of damage (in other words added complexity for little 'net' benefit).

The benefit is having them act out of the initiative order. So way harder to fight against. If it bothers you, take them away and double damage on attacks.

I much preferred the idea of multiple Reactions for Boss monsters; but these Reactions would be individually less powerful than its actual attacks: the Reactions would be glancing blows, trip attacks and so forth that might combo with subsequent main attacks but were not meant to outshine them. The Reactions would be the monster 'reacting' to what the current PC attacker had just done to it, not just getting another action for its own sake.

Legendary actions or more reactions are more or less the same. Legendary actions are harder to shut down though.

And since we have not seen the dragon legendary actions, I really can't comment.

I get why you don't like it. I also see reasoning in that.
My comment was specifically to someone who was bothered that a BIG monster does not do enough damage in a single blow.
I said that SIZE is not all that matters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Does a Great sword wielder add fire damage?

As soon as they get a Flametongue weapon, yes.

Lets see the other half of the stat block first.

True, that could change my opinion - which is solely just based upon the current information.

I have recently fought an enemy that dod not do a lot of damage but had a chance to charm or frighten with each attack. That was scary.

Adding debilitating conditions can be a great equalizer, though Banish is more annoying than anything.

But high level characters in AD&D had a very high chance to save while high level 5e characters have not in general.

True, but the Fear Factor of failure was more exhilarating.

The benefit is having them act out of the initiative order. So way harder to fight against. If it bothers you, take them away and double damage on attacks.

I could do lots of things, including create my own dragons (though not seemingly with any Creation rules in the Monster Manual), I'm specifically commenting on WoTC's statblock though.

Legendary actions or more reactions are more or less the same.

Only if they are designed that way.

I would make Reactions deal half or a third the damage of the main attacks but often include a condition that combo's with the main attack:

ie. Dragon Tail attack (Reaction, when attacked in melee) deals 6d8 (to all targets in a cone shaped area) and knocks prone, but a Claw attack normally dealing 12d6 inflicts maximum damage against a prone target as it squashes them into the ground, etc.

Legendary actions are harder to shut down though.

Not if Legendary Resistance works the same.

And since we have not seen the dragon legendary actions, I really can't comment.

I get why you don't like it. I also see reasoning in that.

My comment was specifically to someone who was bothered that a BIG monster does not do enough damage in a single blow.
I said that SIZE is not all that matters.

Verisimilitude DOES matter though. As does Fear Factor. While my AD&D character is less likely to fail that save, when you hear the damage will deal 100% of the character's HP on a failed save its "Squeaky Bum Time". When a failed save deals 23% of your characters Hit Points my character might just fail the save on purpose, roar at the dragon and say "IS THAT ALL YOU'VE GOT PITIFUL LITTLE LIZARD!?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I’m glad the “Conan dies from slipping on a banana skin” aspect of AD&D is gone.

 

[abirdcall]

I disagree I think WotC are vastly underestimating Epic Tier PC's...yet again.

The CR 24 Dragon is supposedly a High (ie. Deadly threat) for 4 18th-level PCs and 5 17th-level characters
The CR 24 Dragon in its lair is supposedly a High/Deadly threat for 4 19th-level PCs and only slightly misses the mark as a High/Deadly threat for a group of 4 20th-level PCs.

In a nutshell it supposedly represents a Solo High/Deadly threat for Epic Tier PC's.

But Epic Tier PC's will laugh at that damage...and that's even 2014 build PC's BEFORE the Power Creep of the 2024 books.

To threaten Epic Tier PCs as a Solo monster you basically need to be dropping one such character a round! Otherwise this dragon (even with its 546 HP ) is dead in about two rounds, three tops with even 'vanilla' Epic PCs.



This is true, I agree.

We have not seen the Legendary Actions, they might be really strong. However, a dragon's bread and butter is its breath weapon and that Fire Breath is rubbish (it was rubbish damage back in 2014 and its even more rubbish now thanks to 2024 Power Creep). So if the Legendary Actions outshine the breath weapon, the latter just gets relegated to fourth or fifth choice attack strategy.

But who knows maybe one of the Legendary Actions is that the Dragon can combine its breath weapons (Fire + Weakness) which would be slightly better.

Yes the dragon can Banish (we have heard) - which is very effective if bordering on the least fun ability a monster can have.

Maybe its Attacks + Legendary Actions + Lair Action just about drags it up to where the damage should be but as it stands it looks wimpish, lots of epic characters will have access to Fire Resistance, just looks set up to get steamrolled.

Hopefully the full reveal proves me wrong.

A high difficulty encounter is just one that could be lethal for one or more characters. There isn't even the expectation that it will likely be. It just has the possibility to be.

It's also not designed to be a "solo" monster. These sorts of monsters will have allies and minions to call on, the PCs will have needed to face challenges before getting to these monsters, the terrain will be in the monster's favour, and the monsters will have escape plans.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As soon as they get a Flametongue weapon, yes.



True, that could change my opinion - which is solely just based upon the current information.



Adding debilitating conditions can be a great equalizer, though Banish is more annoying than anything.



True, but the Fear Factor of failure was more exhilarating.



I could do lots of things, including create my own dragons (though not seemingly with any Creation rules in the Monster Manual), I'm specifically commenting on WoTC's statblock though.



Only if they are designed that way.

I would make Reactions deal half or a third the damage of the main attacks but often include a condition that combo's with the main attack:

ie. Dragon Tail attack (Reaction, when attacked in melee) deals 6d8 (to all targets in a cone shaped area) and knocks prone, but a Claw attack normally dealing 12d6 inflicts maximum damage against a prone target as it squashes them into the ground, etc.

I don't disagree with the above.

Not if Legendary Resistance works the same.

Of course they are. Reactions are more easy to take away. Has nothing to do with legendary resistance.

Verisimilitude DOES matter though.

I fear being bludggeoned by a huge hammer more than a swipe from a huge claw.
Because the hammer is build to build up a lot more momentum. This is why people use long heavy hammers to smash walls, not claws...

As does Fear Factor. While my AD&D character is less likely to fail that save, when you hear the damage will deal 100% of the character's HP on a failed save its "Squeaky Bum Time". When a failed save deals 23% of your characters Hit Points my character might just fail the save on purpose, roar at the dragon and say "IS THAT ALL YOU'VE GOT PITIFUL LITTLE LIZARD!?

And it is way more swingy. At some point in D&D history designers decided that combat should not end after a single unlucky roll.
So HP of monsters went up. Damage went down.

Since monster HP are generally than PC HP, comparing monster damage and PC damage is moot.

I am also not sure if I like that 100%. But I have seen high level Monsters I designed over the course of hours in 3e go down before they could act because of lucky initative rolls and some lucky attacks.

If it were my choice, PC damage would be reduced and monster HP would be reduced. So both sides of the screen had equal numbers and you could meaningfully compare those stats.
But players always start crying if you reduce their numbers, because they always see only half the picture (look at paladin outcries everywhere).