Child abuse in regards to Dungeons and Dragons IRL, how should such things be handled.

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Celebrim

Legend
This is not abuse. This might not be appropriate parenting, but parents ought to be given wide latitude to set guidelines for their children's behavior and what sort of media content that they consume. I don't always agree with it, parents have that latitude for a reason.

If you think that is severe abuse or even abuse at all, I'm afraid that you are really sheltered.

I can go into my background if you want to prove my credentials with respect to this topic, but I would consider any attempt to act on your impulse to consider this abuse to itself be child endangerment and I would ask you to calm down.
 

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Nebulous

Legend
I agree. This is overprotective parenting considering something they barely understand due to their own personal religious beliefs. Is it hard for the kids to deal with? Sure! But everybody deals with naughty word growing up. Everyone. This is not any different.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Speaking conservativrly, as an adult (legally) I would not entertain under-age minors in my home without explicit parental consent. It's just too problematic on nu eros levrls.

When I run one-shots at flgs, I try and make sure it goes thru the store.

The situations described here are some examples as to why.

My suggestion to the OP and/or the host/owner is to discuss this issue with an attorney. Follow their advice.
 

Celebrim

Legend
My suggestion to the OP and/or the host/owner is to discuss this issue with an attorney. Follow their advice.

I would strongly suggest not gunning up like that. Not only is it highly unfriendly, you could end up with a counter accusation of kidnapping - which is one of the reasons you should not entertain minors in your home without having spoken with their parents directly - and this whole thing can escalate in a hurry.
 

Nebulous

Legend
I would strongly suggest not gunning up like that. Not only is it highly unfriendly, you could end up with a counter accusation of kidnapping - which is one of the reasons you should not entertain minors in your home without having spoken with their parents directly - and this whole thing can escalate in a hurry.

I think he did say it was in a public venue, some hobby shop, not his home
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I think he did say it was in a public venue, some hobby shop, not his home

I still wouldn't do it. I'm 41 why would I want to hang around with 10 and 12 year olds. It's a bad look.

I do entertain my nieces and nephews, babysit sometimes and the neighbours kids loves our cats. I always make sure the parents know if they're here or they can see the kids if they have followed my mooch of a cat and are patting him in the front yard.

For example I had a friend's kids go shopping with me. Baby sit type situation. They're Muslim so I made sure the snacks I bought were halal, and one asked me about what a rainbow flag flying was. I told her ask your parents, the 12 year old said he thought he knew and I just said Haram? He nodded at that.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Disclosures:

1) I lived & gamed through the satanic panic...in Texas.
2) Mom & my godmother (and others) thought I was in danger of going down the path of satanism for a variety of reasons, including gaming and a love of Heavy Metal. (FWIW, I’m still a practicing Catholic- in fact, the only one remaining in my generation in the family.)
3) I actually started a gaming club at my private Catholic HS. The priests were clearly OK with it.
4) Mom eventually realized gaming was harmless, and let me help a family friend initiate her oldest and his buddies into gaming at our house. A good time was had by all.
5) I am a lawyer, but not a Family lawyer.

I’m another in the “not abuse” camp, given what you’ve described. Restrictions on fun is something parents are supposed to do. Having some possessions tossed in the trash hurts- been there- but it doesn’t automatically rise to the level of abuse.

And barring actual abuse, the boys will have other opportunities to game in the future, because the hobby isn’t going away anytime soon.

I will say this: in the event of another interaction with the boys’ parents, keep your cool. It is possible- as it was in my case- that they will be open to a frank and honest discussion. If so, point out that the main objective in most game scenarios is to DEFEAT evil, not praise it; to protect the innocent and helpless, not victimize them. Or that most players are closer to acting out made up stories about Arthurian knights, crusaders and tales of Christian warrior-saints (St. George, St. Joan of Arc, etc.) than anything else.

If you are a religious person, let them know.
 

Celebrim

Legend
So sense Danny has been open, I'll talk about this as best as I can.

I come from a background most of you would identify as very conservative, although those terms are in my opinion increasingly meaningless except as slurs and are not very descriptive. My parents had introduced me to Dungeons & Dragons because they perceived, quite rightly, that from what they understood of the game that I was just the sort of highly precocious youth that would take to it like an otter to water. For a few years, things were fine and I was left to my own devices. On my own initiative there were things in the game that I felt rather unwholesome and tended to stay clear of as I could, which was rather easy since by 12 I was the DM for a bunch of 'Stranger Things' type nerds - many of whom had deeply troubled backgrounds of the like that makes the actual 'Stranger Things' show seem a light hearted fairy tale and which I won't go into here.

Sometime in this period, the Occult Scare got going full swing, and various media personalities and various figures within the religious community began to voice skepticism regarding Dungeons & Dragons. Some of that skepticism was in my judgement as a young teenager reasonably well founded. Much of that skepticism on the other hand was in my opinion based on gross misconceptions, superstition, bad theology, and what I refer to as "giving glory to Satan". Eventually, totally unrelated to my gaming, my parents happened on some art work produced by my younger brother which excited in them much alarm, and unable to explain the source of his inspiration, hit upon his sometimes association with my gaming as the likely culprit. Combined with there increasing misgivings about Dungeons and Dragons, they decided it was time to confront me about my game with the end of forbidding me to continue playing and with the specific strategy of confronting me about the spiritual damage that I was inflicting on my younger brother.

Now, there is one thing that is absolutely critical to understand about this story and that my family raised me to place a very high value in Reason, and that as a 13 year old with above normal adult cognitive ability and knowledge (if not experience), they were not going to just simply order me not to play D&D. I always get a bit of a laugh out of people who aren't part of a religious background claiming Faith is the opposite of Reason. In my house, they were treated as more or less the exact same thing and inseparable. So while they unquestioningly had the authority to just tell me to stop, they weren't going to do so without acquiring my agreement in the matter.

Unlike pretty much everything they'd ever told me to do before, this did not go very well. The result was the first real fight I can ever remember having with my parents, and four hours of rational debate that became increasingly emotional on all sides as my parents pitted their formidable intellects against a 13 year old that had decided not to budge and was prepared to argue the point. There was shouting. There was tears. There was some really underhanded emotional appeals. In the end, I had to give - a child is ultimately not in an equal contest with his parents, but in my mind I had yielded only on one point - that my younger brother was obviously not intellectually and emotionally equipped to process this content.

As a result my gaming material was burned. This despite the fact that they had had a very hard time proving from my trove that the artwork was demonic, because I had very pointedly not bought anything that I thought had problematic artwork. And as a result, I began a very prolonged campaign of disobeying my parents in a very calculated manner, which is as far as I can remember the first I disobeyed my parents over anything since being a toddler and the only thing of any gravity that I disobeyed them over. The exact methodology in question was to immediately switch to Gamma World, and then introduce them to the fact that I was playing Gamma World sometime later as a fait accompli. Then, a bit later I went back to D&D, and could always say I was playing Gamma World if questioned (which my mother, being no fool, pointedly never asked). Larcenous, yes, but while I'm not proud at having deceived and disobeyed my parents, I've never conceded that I lost the argument regarding the spiritual merits and dangers of RPGs. (Although, the fact that I was disobeying them does sort of complicate that discussion.)

Was any of this abuse?

Not in the slightest. This was highly concerned and involved parenting that if it can be faulted at all, was not involved enough. Had my parents been more engaged in my gaming, this probably would have never happened. But that's not abuse, nor is a parent being seriously concerned for a child's well being abuse.

And in particular, even if I obviously disagreed, I was also highly sympathetic to their fears and concerns. Because I had an older cousin who was far more troubled than I was and he was obviously in danger. I maintain that for him gaming had been one of his lifelines, and when that weak reed failed him at the same time a lot of other things were failing him, he took his own life. When that happened, they burned his books as well. And while I disagree, I can hardly fault the family for seeing the gaming as being related to his death in the middle of their grief and in the context.

So again, the situation here you describe is one I recognize, and I don't agree with the parents handling of the situation, and it's entirely possible that the parents involved aren't as wise as mine.

BUT THIS IS NOT ABUSE.

The abusive thing here would be to call up a social worker or the police and allow your anger to escalate this situation into a place that has absolutely no good outcomes for anyone.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
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I always get a bit of a laugh out of people who aren't part of a religious background claiming Faith is the opposite of Reason.

Ditto. But just as commonly, I encounter religious folk who assert likewise.

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, both Faith and Reason are gifts from God. So if Reason has revealed something contrary to one’s Faith, it is one’s Faith that must be re-examined.

Of course, not everyone is a fan of Aquinas...
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Ditto. But just as commonly, I encounter religious folk who assert likewise.

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, both Faith and Reason are gifts from God. So if Reason has revealed something contrary to one’s Faith, it is one’s Faith that must be re-examined.

Of course, not everyone is a fan of Aquinas...


Proof of the effects of Original Sin, right there.

As someone who also is coming from what one might call a conservative religous point of view, and who also has similar experiences with my parents (couldn't read Harry Potter, couldn't watch the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because it was "mystical", and so on) I have to say this is not abuse. It is flawed parents under stress doing what they think is right. Real abuse is much, much different from this.
 

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