Cinematic? Honest question...

[BlackMoria]

If people are interested in interjecting a cinematic feel into their D20 games, then.....

**shameless pimp mode on**

Look for "The Book of Iron Might" by Mike Mearl from Malhavoc Press to be released in October (PDF) (December for print version).

If you ever wondered how to adjudicate or pull off the "old swing on the chandlier and kick over the mooks and then do a somersault release of the chandlier and land behind the evil baron" trick, the Book of Iron Might has a system for designing stunts or creating such stunts on the fly such as this and other cinematic stunts.

Book of Iron Might info

**shameless pimp mode off**

 

[Ibram]

All the rules in the world cannot create a cunematic game if the action is not described by the DM and the players, otherwise the above example of a hero escaping from under a big bad is nothing more then
Player: I burn an action point to dodge his blow, make my attack... its a threat, its a crit, do 30 points of damage.
DM: He goes down dead.

 

[Ourph]

"Cinematic" seems to mean that an RPG mimics the action in all of the really horrible, low budget action flicks we all love to hate (A'nald's Commando for instance) where the story essentially has three levels of character; the Good Guy, the Bad Guy and Mooks. Mooks can fire 10,000 rounds of ammo and shoot missiles at the Good Guy all day long without killing him, whereas the Good Guy can use a snub-nosed .38 to hit and explode the gas tank of an SUV at 300 yards, killing everyone in a 50ft radius (except the Bad Guy of course). Then the Good Guy and the Bad Guy fight it out one-on-one in the end.

D&D does a decent job of this with HP, saving throws, etc. The only place it's really lacking in "cinematic" feel is special rules for Mooks that make them considerably less able than PCs and BBEGs.

 

[RFisher]

You know the "reality" created by movies. Sound in space. People can outrun fiery explosions. Vehicles need not be big enough to carry fuel or other energy supply. There's no difference in the weight or center of gravity for a fully loaded semi-automic pistol & an empty one. Bullets never kill the hero. The hero doesn't need to be smart because he can rely on the stupidity of his enemy to ensure his success. &c.

That's what people refer to buy "cinematic" in reference to roleplaying games. The "reality" of the game world is similar to what you see in the movies.

Of course, it is a continuum. With 2001: A Space Oddyssey on one end & Shoalin Soccer on the other. (OK, OK. Yes, I could easily have used even more extreme examples.)

BTW, Shaolin Soccer is a very entertaining film. I suggest watching both the US version & the Chinese version. US version first, though.

BTW2, I maybe gave the impression I don't like cinematic. Not true.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So, you were watching Star Wars movies? Or by light saber, do you mean Olympic sport sabre type fencing which features heavily in old fashioned Hollywood swashbuckling movies of the type Errol Flynn used to make?

When I say light saber, I watched a video by "Dorkman"... the video was on a friend's computer, since I only have dialup. Do a search, and you should find it.

Just curious; which of those movies were you watching? I have an inordinate fondness for that type of movie.

I think I just described it, but I'm also thinking of one of the numerous Three Musketeers I found (the one where D'Artagnan did a battle on a railing with his opponent still on the ground; risky Balance checks but it does give you +1 to hit your foe)

Book of Iron Might info

A book that promises to be better than Complete Warrior, and cheaper too. Must have. When is it coming out?

All the rules in the world cannot create a cunematic game if the action is not described by the DM and the players, otherwise the above example of a hero escaping from under a big bad is nothing more then
Player: I burn an action point to dodge his blow, make my attack... its a threat, its a crit, do 30 points of damage.
DM: He goes down dead.

Very true. A bad DM is a bad (or learning) DM.

D&D does a decent job of this with HP, saving throws, etc. The only place it's really lacking in "cinematic" feel is special rules for Mooks that make them considerably less able than PCs and BBEGs.

It's called using low-level mooks. I'd love to see a mid-level Modern martial artist take on a bunch of 1st or 2nd level wimps. Give all the mooks Balance and Tumble, maybe Jump, so they can do cool stuff. Be sure there are lots of improvised weapons around, and if the players don't get the hint have some of the mooks use some of them, and maybe a couple of real weapons like spears or staves. Be sure to toss in a couple of sub-bosses (including the bartender, who'll use some completely unexpected fighting style, like shotgun at a brawl), and then the bar's owner turns out to be the head boss...

 

[Someone]

It's called using low-level mooks. I'd love to see a mid-level Modern martial artist take on a bunch of 1st or 2nd level wimps. Give all the mooks Balance and Tumble, maybe Jump, so they can do cool stuff. Be sure there are lots of improvised weapons around, and if the players don't get the hint have some of the mooks use some of them, and maybe a couple of real weapons like spears or staves. Be sure to toss in a couple of sub-bosses (including the bartender, who'll use some completely unexpected fighting style, like shotgun at a brawl), and then the bar's owner turns out to be the head boss...

The DMing art of using mooks is difficult and subtle; our group learned it in our games of 7th sea and Feng Shui. Beating them, since they are easy to beat, means nothing. Also, using a whole lot of them leads to a boring fight. They must be used in small amounts, to annoy rather than damage, and to provide a change of pace in a long action sequence.

 

[Ourph]

The DMing art of using mooks is difficult and subtle; our group learned it in our games of 7th sea and Feng Shui. Beating them, since they are easy to beat, means nothing. Also, using a whole lot of them leads to a boring fight. They must be used in small amounts, to annoy rather than damage, and to provide a change of pace in a long action sequence.

:Emphasis mine:

This is mostly what I was talking about when I said D&D doesnt' handle Mooks very well. There are lots of good "Mook-able" creatures in D&D, but throwing 50 orcs at a group of 8th level characters leads to a lot of tedious bookkeeping for the DM. In some systems I've seen, Mooks are differentiated by being "1 hit = a kill" creatures (i.e. they don't even have HP) and by being denied saving throws (or the equivalent). You can do this in D&D by ignoring HP and saves for cannon fodder, but in a lot of cases, that makes the Mooks too weak to really matter. On the other hand, if you play the Mook's attacks as normal, it not only takes a LONG time to resolve but the results can be deadlier to the PCs than a real Mook type adversary should be.

Adding balanced and easy to incorporate "Mook rules" to D&D would be great as the subject of a D20 sourcebook.

 

[Piratecat]

Here's the best example I've seen. At GenCon a year ago, our Spycraft game started with a car chase. The first thing Teflon Billy did is leap out of his car onto the hood of the car trying to run them off the road, both guns blazing.

Realistic? Nah. Totally frikkin' cool in an action movie? Oh, yeah. For me, that one move defines the term.

 

[Testament]

Spycraft and AEG's spin-off games do cinematic very well, although they also tend to be a bit "us vs the GM", with the ability to spend action dice to confirm or negate crits belonging to both sides of the shield.

No games do cinematic better than Exalted and Feng Shui. Both have rules for extras/mooks respectively, and unprecedented ability to unleash huge dramatic mojo.

 

[maddman75]

An important factor IMO for a cinematic game is some means for players to control fate - Action Dice, Drama Points, Dramatic Editing, whatever you want to call it. The player doesn't make an incredible blow at the last minute because he happened to roll a 20. He makes the incredible blow because the player *wanted* his character to make the incredible blow at that time, and so spent and Action Point.

Another factor is fast play and low tactics. A cinematic game should go rapidly and excitedly, focusing on what's cool, not what's realistic or good tactics.

D&D IMO is not cinematic at all by the book. There's no real player-input method going on and play tends to be tactical rather than spontaneous. Not that this is a bad thing, just that its difficult to swing across the room on a chandalier, knock over two guards as you land, and chuck a dagger at the Duke when you have jump and tumble checks, 5 foot steps, and Attacks of Opportunity to worry about.

Now that doesn't mean you can't run D&D cinematic - you certainly can. I generally do it by letting my players know that Style Matters. If you do something cool, I'm going to ignore the niggly little rules.