It is, unless you're under some mind-affecting effect that obfuscates your ability to think straight.
Last edited:
Clarification on Superior Cover
- Thread starter CajunAzn
- Start date
Please enlighten us. You think it's clear that allies can provide superior cover or that they can't?
People have stated that they can't, but I fail to see where this is made clear in the rules.
P.S. Would that be a "save ends" effect? Can I roll my save now?
This is the entire entry for Cover from the Compendium:
Cover (-2 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The target is around a corner or protected by terrain. For example, the target might be in the same square as a small tree, obscured by a small pillar or a large piece of furniture, or behind a low wall.
Superior Cover (-5 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The target is protected by a significant terrain advantage, such as when fighting from behind a window, a portcullis, a grate, or an arrow slit.
Area Attacks and Close Attacks: When you make an area attack or a close attack, a target has cover if there is an obstruction between the origin square and the target, not between you and the target.
Reach: If a creature that has reach attacks through terrain that would grant cover if the target were in it, the target has cover. For example, even if you’re not in the same square as a small pillar, it gives you cover from the attack of an ogre on the other side of the pillar.
Creatures and Cover: When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover. Your allies never grant cover to your enemies, and neither allies nor enemies give cover against melee, close, or area attacks.
Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.
Here is what I read, in the order the rules are presented:
1) Superior/Cover is a condition that modifies an attack roll (-2/-5 penalty)
2) You gain Superior/Cover from terrain and walls
3) Specific rules apply to area/close attacks (modifying the origin square)
4) Specific rules apply to melee attacks with reach (attack through terrain, not your allies)
5) Specific rules apply to creatures (they provide cover from ranged attacks)
6) Now we get to the general rule... RE: Determining Cover...
Conclusions-
Since the rule for Creatures and Cover specifically carves out one instance (a frequent one), ranged attacks, when creatures interact with the cover rules they are addressed in this final section of the Cover rules suite.
Additionally, the rule for creatures and cover specifically state that if a creature is in the way of your ranged attack, your target has cover... its doesn't tell us to determine cover normally (and i would say overrides the Determining Cover rule since it is more specific), they have cover only if one or all lines are blocked.
Furthermore, the stealth rules specifically state you can't stay hidden behind a creature because in the one instance, stated above, creatures provide cover... you can't claim it for stealth purposes... and since you can never gain superior cover from allies, only cover and then only in the case of a ranged attack, you can never claim superior cover from allies to become hidden in the first place.
Moreover, what the Stealth rules suites needs is less complexity... not more. OP's interpretation is gaudy... where the rules cry out for austerity.
Cover (-2 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The target is around a corner or protected by terrain. For example, the target might be in the same square as a small tree, obscured by a small pillar or a large piece of furniture, or behind a low wall.
Superior Cover (-5 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The target is protected by a significant terrain advantage, such as when fighting from behind a window, a portcullis, a grate, or an arrow slit.
Area Attacks and Close Attacks: When you make an area attack or a close attack, a target has cover if there is an obstruction between the origin square and the target, not between you and the target.
Reach: If a creature that has reach attacks through terrain that would grant cover if the target were in it, the target has cover. For example, even if you’re not in the same square as a small pillar, it gives you cover from the attack of an ogre on the other side of the pillar.
Creatures and Cover: When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover. Your allies never grant cover to your enemies, and neither allies nor enemies give cover against melee, close, or area attacks.
Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.
Here is what I read, in the order the rules are presented:
1) Superior/Cover is a condition that modifies an attack roll (-2/-5 penalty)
2) You gain Superior/Cover from terrain and walls
3) Specific rules apply to area/close attacks (modifying the origin square)
4) Specific rules apply to melee attacks with reach (attack through terrain, not your allies)
5) Specific rules apply to creatures (they provide cover from ranged attacks)
6) Now we get to the general rule... RE: Determining Cover...
Conclusions-
Since the rule for Creatures and Cover specifically carves out one instance (a frequent one), ranged attacks, when creatures interact with the cover rules they are addressed in this final section of the Cover rules suite.
Additionally, the rule for creatures and cover specifically state that if a creature is in the way of your ranged attack, your target has cover... its doesn't tell us to determine cover normally (and i would say overrides the Determining Cover rule since it is more specific), they have cover only if one or all lines are blocked.
Furthermore, the stealth rules specifically state you can't stay hidden behind a creature because in the one instance, stated above, creatures provide cover... you can't claim it for stealth purposes... and since you can never gain superior cover from allies, only cover and then only in the case of a ranged attack, you can never claim superior cover from allies to become hidden in the first place.
Moreover, what the Stealth rules suites needs is less complexity... not more. OP's interpretation is gaudy... where the rules cry out for austerity.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
aliies as superior cover: if you miss the target by 5 or less you immetiately rerol the attack against the creature covering the target...
I also say that a deaf ally acts as cover for ranged attacks against an enemy. And of course an enemy provides cover against reach weapons...
its damn difficult to get a good shot at a back rank enemy. Especially when behind a shield wall.
the only problematic thing i see here is following: to form a shield wall you need to squeeze a bit, because if you have one person per square your wall is a bit stretched thin. You should however think about the shield wall guys having -2 to hit when wielding no short sword or one handed spear.
Or short: either play by the rules which are very easy or make it a bit more realistic as a house rule. What´s actually realistic is a different matter... i bet most of us have no military training in medieval fighting... but i have seen shield walls in action... very hard to attack against... but it needs protected flanks.
I also say that a deaf ally acts as cover for ranged attacks against an enemy. And of course an enemy provides cover against reach weapons...
its damn difficult to get a good shot at a back rank enemy. Especially when behind a shield wall.
the only problematic thing i see here is following: to form a shield wall you need to squeeze a bit, because if you have one person per square your wall is a bit stretched thin. You should however think about the shield wall guys having -2 to hit when wielding no short sword or one handed spear.
Or short: either play by the rules which are very easy or make it a bit more realistic as a house rule. What´s actually realistic is a different matter... i bet most of us have no military training in medieval fighting... but i have seen shield walls in action... very hard to attack against... but it needs protected flanks.
Oh dear, the viral mind disease has already spread farther than I thought...
There's zero indication that allies can provide superior cover, except the fabricated evidence that some fiendish mastermind is trying to post-hypnotically implant into our minds utilizing a puppet account created purely for this devilish purpose.
"Think for yourself! Question authority!" Fnord!
this is your house rule... right?
another house rule... allies don't normally provide cover against melee attacks and the rules that specifically govern reach attacks says only terrain provides it
what? your allies in combat are not a phalanx... they are likely to be moving a lot within their 5x5 space to avoid getting hit by the mobs attacking them...
I'd say this needs a feat
I actually do have some training... not with shield walls, in the japanese martial arts... but that has nothing to do with the fact that i can read and apply complex rules
Really? To me there seems to be two ways of reading the sentence "Cover and Creatures: When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover." (my emphasis)
Either the bolded word means normal cover (as opposed to superior cover) or it means cover of some sort (superior or normal). To say that the rule's meaning is crystal clear is a bit of an exaggeration, in my opinion.
Since the block of definitions start of with dividing cover into cover and superior cover, one could of course assume that the word "cover" is always referring to normal cover after that point, but crystal clear? Not really.
Do I think that allies should provide superior cover? No. Do I think that could have been clearer in the rules? Yes.
The phrase "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover." is being misused.
it starts "When you make a ranged attack. . .", not "When you are hiding" or "If you want to cheese stealth rules". This rule applies when you are making a ranged attack, and once the attack is resolved, presumably the cover is no longer applied.
And the question about whether cover is referring to superior cover or not. . .really? Do you really give your players a +5 to defenses if they are behind their allies?! Nobody does that. Just read the descriptions of what constitues cover and superior cover, and it is pretty clear that allies do not equate to a solid brick wall with arrow slits.
That this discussion is 5 pages long is just silly.
Jay
it starts "When you make a ranged attack. . .", not "When you are hiding" or "If you want to cheese stealth rules". This rule applies when you are making a ranged attack, and once the attack is resolved, presumably the cover is no longer applied.
And the question about whether cover is referring to superior cover or not. . .really? Do you really give your players a +5 to defenses if they are behind their allies?! Nobody does that. Just read the descriptions of what constitues cover and superior cover, and it is pretty clear that allies do not equate to a solid brick wall with arrow slits.
That this discussion is 5 pages long is just silly.
Jay
DracoSuave
First Post
I can't say I see them as corners or terrain either.
Similar Threads
D&D (2024)
Creating good stealth rules for 2024 5e
