D&D 5E (2024) Class and Subclass Design: What Works

Reynard

aka Ian Eller
This thread is intended to largely be from a design perspective. As such we can talk about both official classes and subclasses, as well as whatever 3PP classes and subclasses may have appeared thus far.


I am interested in what you thinks works and doesn't work -- but very importantly WHY. If you just have an axe to grind, this is the wrong thread for you. If you just have vibes, this is the wrong thread for you.

So in D&D 2024, what is important to consider in class and subclass design, and what are examples of both good and bad design in that area?
 

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I like class and subclass abilities that:
A) are reasonably straightforward without being overly fiddly or confusing (ie: user friendly); B) are powerful enough to be worth keeping track of but not game breakingly powerful (so: worthwhile in a balanced way); and C) are evocative of the character, class, or subclass's narrative. I also really like abilities that D) lend themself to creative play or have outside the obvious usage, but don't expect every ability to do so (at least not within a 5e+ framework). A good class or subclass feature fulfills at least the first three criteria reasonably well, though being weak on one point can be made up for on others.

So a pair of examples that come to mind for me from the Hunter Ranger subclass (because their names are, for little good reason, linked):
-A feature I mostly Like: Hunter's Prey. Extra damage to an injured enemy or an extra attack against an enemy next to another. Either option you can pick with it easily satisfies criterion A of being easy enough to understand, track, impliment, etc. and criterion B of being worthwhile but balanced, since both options are pretty powerful, especially at 3rd level, but they are also likely to only work in a few rounds per combat if you're lucky. The abilities themselves are great for criterion C, with Colossus Slayer going right to the whole hunter thing and Horde Breaker always making me think of Aragorn outnumbered by the Uruk-Hai, but the concept that you can switch options on a short rest makes no sense. This switching also makes it more complicated, and frankly wastes half the ability because unless you know you're to be up against a lot of melee weenies you probably never pick Horde Breaker (mileage may vary if your DM is always clumping enemies together, the point is that almost every combat has Colossus Slayer opportunities and many have no Horde Breaker ones). The switching is better perhaps on this front of seeing both get use than the old 5e version where you just picked one forever, but this improvement has come at the cost of making no damned ludo-narrative sense. My main design suggestion would be to simply allow either to be used on a per turn basis, or just make them separate abilities.
-A feature I mostly Dislike: Superior Hunter's Prey: Throw your Hunter's Mark damage on another creature within 30 feet of the one you hit. This is simple enough (at least if you use a battlemap) though I've got to deduct a few points for having a name which would seem to link it to the other ability when they have no relationship whatsoever (the 5e version had them linked for some more logical reason if I recall). But in terms of power, throwing an extra d6 damage around at level 11 and up is not going to amount for much. Honestly if there is a saving grace it is that since the extra damage just targets "a creature" and is automatic there is a little outside the box play to be had here, whether it is helping your allied barbarian maintain rage, waking someone up, or forcing an concentration check, so I guess I'd give it some points on Criterion D. But on Criterion C it really falls apart for me. Why is the spell which normally only augment's my Ranger's martial skills going off and doing damage of its own against creatures they didn't even hit who were 30 feet away. "It's just magic" is really just not good enough when there are so many abilities going to the "just magic" well, rather than logically flowing from the narrative of the class or subclass. If the class or subclass is some flavor of magician that is one thing, but this is a thematically pretty non-magical subclass.

So yeah, that's basically how I approach particular features working or not working from a design perspective. A subclass with a suite of features that "work" in this manner (and at least some sparking creative play) and a compelling concept people would want to play is basically a good one. A class that does so and can support at least a half-dozen or so subclasses that do so is a good class. It should also fit and support the setting it is designed for if it's setting specific, or not make any outlandish demands of the setting if it's setting neutral.

Overall classes and subclasses should be rigid enough to be evocative and aid in players creating compelling chacter concepts, while also being flexible enough to accomodate many PC concepts, so there is some fine-tuning to make the whole more than the sum of its parts, but I do believe making sure all the specific constituent features are good is where 2024 D&D subclasses seem to struggle so I have focused on how I approach specific features.
 

I like class and subclass abilities that:
A) are reasonably straightforward without being overly fiddly or confusing (ie: user friendly); B) are powerful enough to be worth keeping track of but not game breakingly powerful (so: worthwhile in a balanced way); and C) are evocative of the character, class, or subclass's narrative. I also really like abilities that D) lend themself to creative play or have outside the obvious usage, but don't expect every ability to do so (at least not within a 5e+ framework). A good class or subclass feature fulfills at least the first three criteria reasonably well, though being weak on one point can be made up for on others.

So a pair of examples that come to mind for me from the Hunter Ranger subclass (because their names are, for little good reason, linked):
-A feature I mostly Like: Hunter's Prey. Extra damage to an injured enemy or an extra attack against an enemy next to another. Either option you can pick with it easily satisfies criterion A of being easy enough to understand, track, impliment, etc. and criterion B of being worthwhile but balanced, since both options are pretty powerful, especially at 3rd level, but they are also likely to only work in a few rounds per combat if you're lucky. The abilities themselves are great for criterion C, with Colossus Slayer going right to the whole hunter thing and Horde Breaker always making me think of Aragorn outnumbered by the Uruk-Hai, but the concept that you can switch options on a short rest makes no sense. This switching also makes it more complicated, and frankly wastes half the ability because unless you know you're to be up against a lot of melee weenies you probably never pick Horde Breaker (mileage may vary if your DM is always clumping enemies together, the point is that almost every combat has Colossus Slayer opportunities and many have no Horde Breaker ones). The switching is better perhaps on this front of seeing both get use than the old 5e version where you just picked one forever, but this improvement has come at the cost of making no damned ludo-narrative sense. My main design suggestion would be to simply allow either to be used on a per turn basis, or just make them separate abilities.
-A feature I mostly Dislike: Superior Hunter's Prey: Throw your Hunter's Mark damage on another creature within 30 feet of the one you hit. This is simple enough (at least if you use a battlemap) though I've got to deduct a few points for having a name which would seem to link it to the other ability when they have no relationship whatsoever (the 5e version had them linked for some more logical reason if I recall). But in terms of power, throwing an extra d6 damage around at level 11 and up is not going to amount for much. Honestly if there is a saving grace it is that since the extra damage just targets "a creature" and is automatic there is a little outside the box play to be had here, whether it is helping your allied barbarian maintain rage, waking someone up, or forcing an concentration check, so I guess I'd give it some points on Criterion D. But on Criterion C it really falls apart for me. Why is the spell which normally only augment's my Ranger's martial skills going off and doing damage of its own against creatures they didn't even hit who were 30 feet away. "It's just magic" is really just not good enough when there are so many abilities going to the "just magic" well, rather than logically flowing from the narrative of the class or subclass. If the class or subclass is some flavor of magician that is one thing, but this is a thematically pretty non-magical subclass.

So yeah, that's basically how I approach particular features working or not working from a design perspective. A subclass with a suite of features that "work" in this manner (and at least some sparking creative play) and a compelling concept people would want to play is basically a good one. A class that does so and can support at least a half-dozen or so subclasses that do so is a good class. It should also fit and support the setting it is designed for if it's setting specific, or not make any outlandish demands of the setting if it's setting neutral.

Overall classes and subclasses should be rigid enough to be evocative and aid in players creating compelling chacter concepts, while also being flexible enough to accomodate many PC concepts, so there is some fine-tuning to make the whole more than the sum of its parts, but I do believe making sure all the specific constituent features are good is where 2024 D&D subclasses seem to struggle so I have focused on how I approach specific features.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
 

One area 5e struggles with is adding martial proficiency to full-casters, mostly because I think the power budget left over after being a full caster just doesn't have room for much else. Plus having melee-capable AC is too much defense for a full caster (who need to be squishy to not actually dominate the game.) This is my main argument for an arcane half-caster/half-warrior class.

The other thing that subclasses struggle with is any ability that fundamentally changes how a class plays. The biggest example is the 2014 Pact of the Blade (which has the above issues) that changes what ability scores you'd want to prioritize, which means either you have to build for level 3 and hope you get there or get a respec at said level.

Of course the alternative is to make new classes for such things, but that's part of why Pathfinder has a bit of class bloat.
 

One area 5e struggles with is adding martial proficiency to full-casters, mostly because I think the power budget left over after being a full caster just doesn't have room for much else. Plus having melee-capable AC is too much defense for a full caster (who need to be squishy to not actually dominate the game.) This is my main argument for an arcane half-caster/half-warrior class.

The other thing that subclasses struggle with is any ability that fundamentally changes how a class plays. The biggest example is the 2014 Pact of the Blade (which has the above issues) that changes what ability scores you'd want to prioritize, which means either you have to build for level 3 and hope you get there or get a respec at said level.

Of course the alternative is to make new classes for such things, but that's part of why Pathfinder has a bit of class bloat.
For clarity, I am interested in specifics about 2024 class and subclass design in this thread.
 

The keys to create a right class:

- Power balance, of course

- Interesting concept and its own identity mark: For example the failure of incarnate and soulborn (3.5 Magic of Incarnum) is they are paladin clones with a different game mechanic. Who remember the seer class from 4th Ed? Each new class needs a minimal "brand power".

- Fun gameplay. A class focused into buffing allies and nerfing enemies can be useful but not fun, or the psychic enervation of the wilder (3.5 psionic) where you are only betting psionic power points.
 

The aside first: Would this be better as a plus thread?

For the class/subclass design, I think deciding how much of the power "budget" belongs in the subclass is very important. As jmartkdr2 mentioned in post #4, full casters don't have much budget left for the subclass. How much does a wizard change when they chose one of their subclasses? Bladesinger is perhaps the only one I can think of that radically changes the class play experience.

Compare that to an Artificer: Artilersists and battlesmiths are very far apart. Personally, I prefer things more towards the Artificer end of the spectrum, and frankly, don't think the Wizards needs subclasses.

I'm sure I will have other thoughts, but I need to wake up for work in 4 hours, so ...
 

1. power balance should be 1st priority when designing anything, sure, there will never be true balance, but we can try to be as close as possible.

2. All subclasses should have same power budget. That will leave open option for universal subclasses or just dissolving subclasses into feats with level requirement that anyone can take.

3. Classes need less fixed features and more open feat slots. See warlock's invocations.

4. Since Concentration is such a limiting mechanic(and really good one for the most part), no fixed class feature should give usages of spells that require Concentration(yes, Hunter's mark, I'm talking about you).
IF that feature exist, then it either needs to have option to be used on something not requiring Concentration or giving option to remove Concentration tag with some power reducing effect if needed:
as in with War cleric, Fey wanderer ranger or Draconic sorcerer.

5. when possible, except for casters, there should be option of getting a simple or complex feature or better yet active vs. passive feature.
IE: for martials can be:
+1 AC,
+2 damage, (+3 with heavy weapons, +1 with light weapons)
+2 HP per level
+2 maneuvers known and +2 usage

1st 3 options as write in and forget, 4th one requires choice on what to pick and game knowledge when and against who to use it.

6. Try to get "new" features to the classes by 10th or 11th level.
later levels should be only for more or better usages of already gained abilities.

IE:
barbarians Indomitable might is a cool feature and not that powerful, too bad it wont be seen by 99% of barbarian players-
same for bards Superior inspiration. Is it that powerful that it requires to wait 18 levels?

also what it with this "when you roll initiative you gain X?"
are we again going with "bag of rats"?
or will I punch a party member for 1 damage so we all roll initiative and regain X amount of Y features.

anything with "when your roll initiative" can be replaced with Action: regain X amount of Y.
Action is very expensive in combat to use.
And getting a use or two of bardic inspiration at that level simply does not make sense. Unless you really need/want that feature.
 

The power budget between class and subclass is important. There needs to be enough in each to insert flavor and choose in each.

Full casters have too much power in Class.
Rangers and Fighters have too much power in subclass.
 

The power budget between class and subclass is important. There needs to be enough in each to insert flavor and choose in each.

Full casters have too much power in Class.
Rangers and Fighters have too much power in subclass.
So, as casters are already stronger, we need more power in base noncaster classes.

And if we get subclasses at same level, that was in UA, we can have universal Healer subclass for all casters, warlock and halfcasters.

IE:
1st level:
Bonus spells and bonus healing with spells

3rd level:
Preserve life

6th level:
Blessed healer

10th level:
Supreme healing

14th level:
we need to add something here...
IE: when you cast a spell from this list that has a casting time Action, you can make one weapon attack or cast an Action cantrip as a Bonus action.


All subclasses should be at levels 1,3,6,10 and 14.
1st level would be light in power, reserved for bonus proficiencies and bonus spells.
 

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