Class Knowledge Skills

[Caliber]

Does it seem odd to anyone that Knowledge (Undead) isn't on the Cleric's class skill list? It seems something that should obviously be there. This came up in my game when a Cleric trying for Hunter of the Undead started trying to qualify and found that it would take ~11 levels to get a non-class skill high enough to qualify. One level of bard though, and they could get in.

So a Cleric-Bard qualifies easier? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[shilsen]

This is true of a number of Knowledge subtypes. I'd argue that Knowledge (Planes) should be on the cleric list too, considering their links to their deities and the number of plane-related spells that they get. These omissions are often most obvious when dealing with PrCs and their requirements. The Sacred Exorcist (I think) requires a fair number of ranks in Knowledge (Planes), which again makes it necessary to pick up another class.

 

[pontus]

Face it - Clerics are nothing but uneducated, plate-wearing, mace-wielding, god-worshipping scum.

Clerics with the Knowledge domain get all knowledge skills as class skills.

 

[hong]

Does it seem odd to anyone that Knowledge (Undead) isn't on the Cleric's class skill list? It seems something that should obviously be there. This came up in my game when a Cleric trying for Hunter of the Undead started trying to qualify and found that it would take ~11 levels to get a non-class skill high enough to qualify. One level of bard though, and they could get in.

Knowledge (undead) isn't on the cleric skill list simply because it isn't a PHB Knowledge skill. It was introduced by Monte in his hunter of the dead PrC in Dragon magazine.

Personally, I think the proliferation of Knowledge skills is a bad thing. It narrows the scope of the existing skills, making them less valuable than before; also, it raises issues of having to rework existing skill lists, as you mention. I don't see why Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (arcana) couldn't have been an adequate substitute. This isn't GURPS, where every discipline known to man (and some that are unknown) has to be represented by its own individual skill.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I disagree that new knowledge skills narrow the scope of the older ones.

The same item of knowledge will have different DC based on the specific version of knowledge skill, but they don't impact each other.


For example, recalling the name of a particular baelnorn may be a DC30 Know:Religion check
but also be
DC30 Know:History check

But if some one has Know:Undead or Know: Elven History, the DC in either case is only 25.

Perhaps a character really wants to know about Elven Undead, so he takes Know: Elven Undead. He takes a very narrow skill, that will not be useful often, but in the baelnorn question the DC is only 15.

None of these skills makes any other skill less useful.

 

[hong]

I disagree that new knowledge skills narrow the scope of the older ones.

The same item of knowledge will have different DC based on the specific version of knowledge skill, but they don't impact each other.

That's nice, but I don't know of anyone who actually runs skills that way. It's usually "skill X applies in this situation, and no other skills count". Furthermore, you'll note how this thread is about skill prereqs for prestige classes, and there's no PrCs that feature prereqs along the lines of "choose one of the following skills". (There's the loremaster, which specifies a certain number of _total_ ranks in Knowledge skills, but that's not quite the same thing.)

For example, recalling the name of a particular baelnorn may be a DC30 Know:Religion check
but also be
DC30 Know:History check

But if some one has Know:Undead or Know: Elven History, the DC in either case is only 25.

That way lies madness.

What next, skill defaults?

Optional specialisation?

Maneuvers?

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Interesting, I don't know anyone who doesn't.

Are you saying that knowledge the planes and knowledge; religion and knowledge arcana al have no overlap with each other? Talk about the path to madness.

I think you are vastly overcomplicting a very simple matter.

As for PClass prereqs, I don't see any problem. If you want to be to specific in your knowledge, you probably won't qualify for any PClasses.

 

[hong]

Interesting, I don't know anyone who doesn't.

Are you saying that knowledge the planes and knowledge; religion and knowledge arcana al have no overlap with each other? Talk about the path to madness.

What matters is not whether they do; what matters is whether the overlap is 1) sufficient to allow skill checks in two skills to count when answering the one question; and 2) important enough to be taken into account by DMs when adjudicating such matters.

I think you are vastly overcomplicting a very simple matter.

Uh-huh. I hate it when I overcomplict something. It does terrible things to my compliction.

If I want fine detail in my skill lists, I know where to get it. D&D's strength is not in faithful representation of reality, it's in fast play.

As for PClass prereqs, I don't see any problem. If you want to be to specific in your knowledge, you probably won't qualify for any PClasses.

... except hunter of the dead, which is what this thread is about in the first place. Note that even the undead-related PrCs in T&B (pale master and true necromancer) don't have a Knowledge (undead) requirement. It's a one-off thing that Monte came up with, and with any luck, it'll die out.

 

[Don21584]

I never did understand why a Monk never had Knowledge (religion), but yet he has Knowledge (Arcana) but not Spellcraft.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

What matters is not whether they do; what matters is whether the overlap is 1) sufficient to allow skill checks in two skills to count when answering the one question; and 2) important enough to be taken into account by DMs when adjudicating such matters.

I don't really see the distinction. But, phrase the question any way you want to, are you claiming that no question that could be answered with a know: religion check could ever also be answered with a know: the planes check?

Uh-huh. I hate it when I overcomplict something. It does terrible things to my compliction.

All I am saying is that I am implementing rules directly out of the book and you are jumping to things like
"That way lies madness.

What next, skill defaults?

Optional specialisation?

Maneuvers?"

It is not remotely that complicated.

If I want fine detail in my skill lists, I know where to get it. D&D's strength is not in faithful representation of reality, it's in fast play.

And you can have a fine list. But Monte should not be shackled by your play style.
If you are going to impose a fixed realm of knowledge skill on your game, then you will be forced to adapt when you use new material. No big deal.

But to argue that it is a bad thing, just because you don't want to play that way does not seem reasonable.

Again, if you are claiming that anything I said is an attempt to create a "faithful representation of reality", you are really overcomplicating it.

Fast play?
Player: Do I know X?
DM: What Knowledge skill do you think you would use?
Player: Know: XYZ
DM: OK, the DC is A.

Very quick.

Here is how I imagine your version:
Player: Do I know X?
DM: Sure, make a Knowledge: Religion check.
Player: Religion? I don't have religion, shouldn't I be able to make a know: the planes check? I have 14 ranks.
DM: Nope, this is a strictly religion matter, the planes have nothing to do with it.
Player: What do you mean, this question is all about the planes.
DM: But it is more about religion.
Player: I disagree.
DM: I'm the DM.
Player: nevermind.

... except hunter of the dead, which is what this thread is about in the first place. Note that even the undead-related PrCs in T&B (pale master and true necromancer) don't have a Knowledge (undead) requirement. It's a one-off thing that Monte came up with, and with any luck, it'll die out.

Like I said, if you are going to constrain your game, you are going to have to adapt material to fit you view.
Change the prereq to know:religion and you are good to go.

I think the addition of knowledge skills adds to the flavor in the game. With any luck, it will catch on even more.