Class variants: ranger, fighter, and others ("Class X" series)

[Cortrillion]

Good work Quickleaf. I am looking forward to seeing them when they are done.

I was looking at your Parry rule for the fighter veteran, I really like the idea, as i feel like the fighter should be the toughest nut on the battlefield, to crack. I kind of have this idea from mmorpg where the fighter often take on the roll of the "tank". In 5ed the paladin is as tough as the fighter, if not tougher, with many of the paladins effects extending out in an aura (+charisma bonuses to all saving throws come to mind as really powerful).

Anyway, i feel that your parry with the focus on rolling another opposed roll may be a bit of a game slower. As it is there is already a parry function on the battlemaster, it reads;
"Parry. When another creature damages you with a
melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one
superiority die to reduce the damage by the number you
roll on your superiority die + your Dexterity modifier"

Maybe you should remove the extra dice roll, keep the cost of a reaction (that will cause it not to stack with some feats, like polearm mastery and sentinel). But remove the "+ you level as a fighter" as this may be to much, and kind of remove the idea of the d10 in the first place, I would suggest "+ you Dexterity modifier " as above or "+ you Strength modifier" to limit Dexterity based fighters Or "+your Dexterity or Strength modifier, which ever is the highest, to make them balanced.

I feel that your idea of giving the fighter more options in combat is the way to go. He is bland and boring even if you pick the battlemaster, 6 dice can be used in one turn of fighting with no problem. The 5ed game has A LOT of recurse management in it. Not only spells, but also Ki, smites, rages and superiority dice. I am not a fan of this, infarct i kind of hate it.


Ps; From your fighter pdf. page 3 "DUAL WEAPON TALENTS"
You must be wielding a melee weapon in each
hand in order to use great weapon talents.

 

[peterka99]

Fighter... Fighting talent and style are roughly equal. The veteran is less powerful than a champion, that is already despite by most on the forums.

This is a good way to reintroduce d&d 3e and 4e features. It still need balance... You give too many talents (they are stronger that your Swashbuckler tricks)... Limit it to 1 style= 2 talents (so more for the veteran).
Pay attention not to mimic the d&d 3e feats errors- too many feats, the feat prerequisites, etc...


Do you intend giving talents to the paladin as well instead of fighting style ?

The main reason for some of my friends to take the champion is its lack of options. Simplicity. Your talents are more complex than the fighting style... just my 22 cents (my birthdate) .

 

[peterka99]

Ranger...

main features

Studied Strike and Horde Tactics : I got the same comment with my scout post (see below): how to explain why you loose bonus to attack the orcs when switching to an ettin ? Your answer is: Concentration. Does the bonus work of alien races like abberations or undead ? The ranger knows all the enemy for long or get the bonus after studying it for a mere round ? +2 every round sounds like 13th age.

swap SS and wildcrafts. SS is too powerful for level 1 and wilfcraft replace favored enemy and natural explorer (favored terrain)...

I invite you to check and vampirize my scout version at http://www.enworld.org/forum/editpost.php?p=6635330&do=editpost, or the older one from december (multi-classed as the Swashbuckler and muskeeter). Use WIS instead of INT...

tracking higher features

level 11th: reconnaissance: You are proficient with cartographer’s tool. When using a spyglass, you have advantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks to identify features of a army host (standards, officers, etc). Not tracking, but ranger themed...

15th: See Princess Bride Prince Humperdinck. You can get "know your enemy" info from tracking analysis.

wilderness lore... no idea, since you render favored terrain an optional wildcraft. Maybe just leave Natural explorer as is since it is a fair ability per se... Maybe expertise in nature and survival ?


Borderland guard: Defensive camp is too situational and underpowered. The PHB ranger has more powerful defensive tactics, but only slightly. The (cover) bonus may apply also to any battlefield scene set up by the Guard. Also, the guard set traps and alarms.. Setting time: 10 minutes as a ritual ?

"For duty and honor" 11th level: Horde tactics applied to the entire party as you teach others the trick?
+2 a round, Damage limit: intelligence modifier, min +1.
Only a mage or a mystic will have high Int, so not Op.

The issue is about concentration requirement for the recipicients and origin: mundande or magical ? maybe: the trigger should be: skirmish use, lasts 1 minute ? Then INT mod will be too low and WIS will be better (still without proficieny bonus otherwise too OP).

Evasion feature is a no-brainer as level 15 for both guard and scout sub-classes. You don't have to rewrite EVERYthing.

Scout: The scout needs more combat abilities ... all d&d 5e classes do hit hard or heal... Even the life cleric, the most peaceful sub-class deal +1d8 damage at 8th level... And 11th level is too late... Scouting then Pathfinding are 2 non-combat features in the row, maybe too much...

Maybe helping the team with reflex defense ?

level 7: "Reflex move " (find a better name) ....... as a reaction on the scout turn, all allies may move up to their move (to lay down, take cover or just move closer to the enemy).

level 11 pathfinding = free movement as the spell in place of regular skirmish bonuses ? Or Maybe link it with reflex move: everyone move without AOE (so, skirmish). trigger: skirmish use, lasts 1 round ?


Warden

I have little to say. Seems fine. But some Druid spells are OP (ex: shillelagh as a cantrip means magical weapon for a level 1 for free. Like the UA Immortal class. A little too much. Coming back to the ranger progression ?

It leaves the senses bonus the ranger should give to allies (as per your class to-do list). level 11th: Maybe the warden can give it as a magical boost : + proficiency bonus as expertise grant to perception and share special senses like darkvision, tremorsense, etc, to all allies in a 30' radius ?
trigger: skirmish use, lasts 1 minute ? And ranger-only spells and progression as a nerf ?

See the beastmaster animal sense share comeback in this feature... As the only "official" magic sub-class, animal-related wildcrafts suits the Warden better than the others sub-classes... Animals are allies like the players. The wildcraft sense-sharing duration should be higher than 1 minute for animals- maybe 1 hour if INT is less than 7 ?

That was both 3 sub-classes will have a feature and only 1 class will improve it to share with allies.

Wildcrafts:

I wish I could play this ranger in another life... Etienne would want Travel hardened . And by the way "OCC" my bard should get extra attack at 6th level as this feature is archetype related, not core for the bard.

Poultice: I think the unearthed arcana version is fine. 10d6 healing at 20th level is too high.

Animal companion: As I said earlier, maybe the Warden or otherwise the 3 archetypes may magically boost the animal (the issue is the low HP) and get the beastmaster perception tricks, etc ? wildcraft prerequisites chain (as my Gunner trick upgrade suggestion for the Swashbuckler) ?

For favored terrain, did you forget PHB : "Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel " ?

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen! First, the fighter...
[MENTION=6795419]Cortrillion[/MENTION] My fighter class is meant to provide options, though I think the battlemaster is a bit more complex actually. You only start with 2 talents in my version of the fighter (e.g. devastating strike & pommel strike) after all, compared to...what, 4 maneuvers? for the battlemaster. Of course, you could use this fighter class WITH the battlemaster and then you'd have options up the wazoo!

As for the question of Parry, I did debate about making it automatic damage reduction exactly as you describe. I decided against this for a couple of reasons:

• In order to balance at-will parrying without the d20 roll, I would need to reduce the damage reduction to the point that it wouldn't *feel* like truly parrying, it would feel like turning an attack into a less powerful attack or a grazing blow.
• The not knowing whether an attack will be parried or not is actually a positive, since it immerses the fighter player more and minimizes meta-game thinking like "well, I'm at X hit points, and so-and-so can only hit for Y damage, so as long as I parry I'm good."
• Because characters only get one reaction per round, this is a built in limit on how often the fighter will be parrying.

[MENTION=6787234]peterka99[/MENTION] Great comments, thanks

How do you see the Veteran as less powerful than the Champion? I actually think the Veteran is a little *more* powerful because he has control over when he uses Fighting Talents, while the Champion's critical hits are at the whim of the dice. And frequency of use for talents will probably be every other round, maybe every round at higher levels, which is probably on par or slightly better than frequency of critical hits.

As for the talents, maybe there's a misunderstanding. This fighter would take 2 talents at 1st level, say Devastating Strike & Pommel Strike. NOT 2 entire categories like ALL Great Weapon Talents and ALL Archery Talents. Make sense? Do you still think it's too much?

Pay attention not to mimic the d&d 3e feats errors- too many feats, the feat prerequisites, etc...

Do you see me making that mistake somewhere?

Do you intend giving talents to the paladin as well instead of fighting style?

No, I wasn't planning on it. I actually think the paladin class is well designed the way it is.

The main reason for some of my friends to take the champion is its lack of options. Simplicity. Your talents are more complex than the fighting style... just my 22 cents (my birthdate).

Yes, the talents are meant to be more complex. For someone who wants a simplified fighter then the PHB Fighter with Champion sub-class is the best option. My class is for people who want a more granular fighter (though without getting bogged down in complexities like the BD&D Weapon Mastery table...that gives me a headache even thinking about, haha).

 

[peterka99]

No. I mean 2 talents, not 2 classes. I think cleave and sunder equal a style... So just replace style with talents. 2 for fighters, 4 for veteran.

 

[Quickleaf]

No. I mean 2 talents, not 2 classes. I think cleave and sunder equal a style... So just replace style with talents. 2 for fighters, 4 for veteran.

Gotcha. Yeah, it's certainly something I will consider.

I actually think the Fighting Styles (i.e. duelist, protector, etc) of the PHB fighter are a bit underwhelming. So my version of the fighter is *probably* more powerful than the PHB fighter and *definitely* offers greater versatility.

 

[peterka99]

I updated my ranger comments with new ideas.

-guard: share damage bonus; scout: share move; warden: share perception and special senses.
-Closest to civilization to farest.
-Less magical to more magical ? Maybe warden should have no magic at all ?

Sorry to have more inspiration for the ranger than the fighter... I'm always there to help you, especially when it helps me as well (I try to fix my scout for the last 7 months!)

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for the comments! Let me respond on the Ranger...

First off I've made BIG changes, notably:

• Replaced Studied Strike with "Overwatch."
• Replaced Skirmish with "Aura of Awareness."
• Moved Skirmish to the Scout exclusively.
• Considering replacements for the 20th level Foe Slayer feature.

[SBLOCK=Overwatch (1st level)]As a bonus action you can begin concentrating on either a specific enemy or a fixed 10 foot radius area you can see. Maintaining your Overwatch requires concentration.
While concentrating on a specific enemy, your attacks deal +1d6 damage against that enemy. At 6th level, this extra damage increases to +1d8, at 11th level to +1d10, and at 17th level to +1d12.
While concentrating on an area, you may use your reaction to make an attack against a creature in the area making an attack against you or an ally, or against a creature attempting to leave the area. This attack deals the same bonus damage described above.[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Aura of Awareness (9th level)]At 9th level, you are preternaturally alert to the signs of danger and are swift to alert your companions. You and allies within 10 feet of you add your Wisdom modifier to passive Perception scores while you are conscious and can perceive your environment. This is on top of normally applying your Wisdom to Perception.
At 13th level, you and allies in the aura add your Wisdom modifier to Wisdom (Perception) checks, and can still take reactions even when surprised. This is on top of normally applying your Wisdom to Perception.
At 18th level, the range of your aura increases to 30 feet.[/SBLOCK]

Studied Strike and Horde Tactics : I got the same comment with my scout post (see below): how to explain why you loose bonus to attack the orcs when switching to an ettin ? Your answer is: Concentration. Does the bonus work of alien races like abberations or undead ? The ranger knows all the enemy for long or get the bonus after studying it for a mere round ? +2 every round sounds like 13th age.

I ended up scrapping Studied Strike (and therefore Horde Tactics).

Instead, I replaced it with Overwatch, which is similar to the hunter's mark spell, except with concentration as the limiting factor. Down the road, multi-classing this version of the ranger with the psionic mystic (see Unearthed Arcana) might be problematic because they share a reliance on concentration. However, with the PHB classes I think it works fine.

swap SS and wildcrafts. SS is too powerful for level 1 and wilfcraft replace favored enemy and natural explorer (favored terrain)...

Would you still say that with my Overwatch proposal? Since the Wildcrafts are based on Warlock Invocations (which the warlock gets at 2nd level), I followed suit and gave them to the ranger at 2nd level.

level 11th: reconnaissance: You are proficient with cartographer’s tool. When using a spyglass, you have advantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks to identify features of a army host (standards, officers, etc). Not tracking, but ranger themed...

Probably not worth a core class feature, but definitely would make a cool Wildcraft. I'll add it in!

15th: See Princess Bride Prince Humperdinck. You can get "know your enemy" info from tracking analysis.

I've been thinking the exact same thing, but I'm still trying to hammer out the right mechanics. Why did you choose 15th level though?

wilderness lore... no idea, since you render favored terrain an optional wildcraft. Maybe just leave Natural explorer as is since it is a fair ability per se... Maybe expertise in nature and survival ?

There are lots of good ideas in the PHB feature Natural Explorer. It's just a bit hard to keep track of it all. Definitely looking at ways to simplify that feature, and definitely removing the "favored terrain" requirement from it.

Borderland guard: Defensive camp is too situational and underpowered. The PHB ranger has more powerful defensive tactics, but only slightly. The (cover) bonus may apply also to any battlefield scene set up by the Guard. Also, the guard set traps and alarms.. Setting time: 10 minutes as a ritual ?[/QUOTE]
Hmm, I tried re-writing the ability...I think this works better...

Defensive Camp
At 7th level you can set up a camp or watch rotation (whether in the wilderness or in town), granting yourself and up to 8 allies one of the following benefits of your choice when taking a long rest:

• You and your allies still benefit from a long rest even if undertaking strenuous activity like standing watch for more than 2 hours or honing weapons (though not fighting or spellcasting).
• You and your allies do not suffer disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks while asleep, provided you can set up wards or NPC guards.
• You and your allies gain temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier, provided everyone has a full meal and you can share some inspirational words.

"For duty and honor" 11th level: Horde tactics applied to the entire party as you teach others the trick?
+2 a round, Damage limit: intelligence modifier, min +1.
Only a mage or a mystic will have high Int, so not Op.

Yeah, I agree some sort of leadership ability is called for the Borderlands Guard at higher levels. A conferred damage bonus might work. I'm still brainstorming on it.

I've replaced the 3rd level "Horde Tactics" with "Allied Overwatch."

Allied Overwatch
At 3rd level you can use your Overwatch feature on an ally whom you can see. While you concentrate on that ally, you can make a ranged or melee attack as a reaction against any enemy who moves within 5 feet of your ally or attacks them. This attack benefits from the extra damage Overwatch grants.

Evasion feature is a no-brainer as level 15 for both guard and scout sub-classes. You don't have to rewrite EVERYthing.

Not sure about the Borderlands Guard, but YES, definitely fits for the Scout. However, Evasion is gained by the rogue @ 7th level, so giving it at 15th level seems weak. Also it would mean displacing the Pathfinding feature (which is still a work-in-progress), and Pathfinding seems like it would be something thematically suited to a Scout.

Scout: The scout needs more combat abilities ... all d&d 5e classes do hit hard or heal... Even the life cleric, the most peaceful sub-class deal +1d8 damage at 8th level... And 11th level is too late... Scouting then Pathfinding are 2 non-combat features in the row, maybe too much...

Hmm, you're right the Scout needs a solid combat feature. I think I've made the ranger sub-classes a little bit lighter on the combat side because all rangers get Overwatch which is a potent damage dealing feature with a little bit of scaling to it.

Maybe the best move would be to make "Pathfinding" a Wildcraft, then devote the 7th level scout feature to a straight up combat ability, perhaps adapting Skirmish into an offensive feature as well as a defensive one.

level 11 pathfinding = free movement as the spell in place of regular skirmish bonuses ? Or Maybe link it with reflex move: everyone move without AOE (so, skirmish). trigger: skirmish use, lasts 1 round ?

While I was thinking of Pathfinding as more about guiding a party overland and blazing trails to make travel easier...maybe that should just be part of the 1st level Wilderness Lore feature. I think granting the ranger free movement as an enduring spell-like quality is a good idea! Definitely will find a place for it!

level 11th: Maybe the warden can give it as a magical boost : + proficiency bonus as expertise grant to perception and share special senses like darkvision, tremorsense, etc, to all allies in a 30' radius ?

Yeah, definitely I addressed this with Aura of Awareness, but the idea of sharing special senses is really intriguing. Imagine an elven ranger granting darkvision to the humans in her party....how would that work narratively without being overtly magical? I guess I can see it...the ranger would be coaching them about how to get their eyes to adapt to the darkness...or something? A bit of a stretch.

I wish I could play this ranger in another life... Etienne would want Travel hardened .

Haha, well we could always make it a Swashbuckling Trick and voila!

Poultice: I think the unearthed arcana version is fine. 10d6 healing at 20th level is too high.

Ack! Did I modify it from the UA version? I've been making so many changes I lost track. Thanks for catching that.

Animal companion: As I said earlier, maybe the Warden or otherwise the 3 archetypes may magically boost the animal (the issue is the low HP) and get the beastmaster perception tricks, etc ? wildcraft prerequisites chain (as my Gunner trick upgrade suggestion for the Swashbuckler) ?

I have been considering adding a revised Beastmaster sub-class which, in addition to granting the Animal Companion wildcraft, would give the companion a boost as you describe. Or maybe I'll just boost the Animal Companion wildcraft with scaling HP. Not sure yet. Depends on if there is more to warrant a Beastmaster sub-class than just making your Animal Companion tougher.

For favored terrain, did you forget PHB : "Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel " ?

I'm actually moving that aspect into Wilderness Lore and applying it to any terrain the ranger and his or her party are moving overland thru for 1 hour or more. So it wouldn't apply to tactical movement, but to overland movement.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6787234]peterka99[/MENTION] Actually, I was right about the Healing Poultices. I was using almost verbatim what was presented in the Unearthed Arcana spell-less ranger:

At 3rd level, you can create special herbal poultices that have healing power comparable to some potions. You can spend 1 hour gathering herbs and preparing herbal poultices using treated bandages to create a number of such poultices equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). You can carry a number of poultices at one time equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). The poultices you create cannot be applied by anyone but you. After 24 hours, any poultices that you have not used lose their potency.

If you spend 1 minute applying one of your poultices to a wounded humanoid creature, thereby expending its use, that creature regains 1d6 hit points for every two ranger levels you have (rounded up).

Source: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes

 

[peterka99]

Thanks for the comments! Let me respond on the Ranger...
Yeah, definitely I addressed this with Aura of Awareness, but the idea of sharing special senses is really intriguing. Imagine an elven ranger granting darkvision to the humans in her party....how would that work narratively without being overtly magical? I guess I can see it...the ranger would be coaching them about how to get their eyes to adapt to the darkness...or something? A bit of a stretch.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...quot-Class-X-quot-series)/page2#ixzz3gfkHPb8w

My suggestion was: guard-scout-warden
mundance- mixed- magical

so the share of perception from the ranger is purely magical.