classes-a level to level comparison, focused on spell casters vs. non spell casters

[Sir ThornCrest]

1st level campaigns tend to be dominated by the combatants-Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins. However the Cleric & Rogue are at the top of the list, as far as influence on the campaign. The Rogues skills with backstab keep him involved in almost any situations, if not out right controlling the tempo, directing the party etc. The Cleric is usually capable and involved with everything from roll play to combat. And quite frankly the cleric is everyone’s best friend. And at first level an outfitted fighter tends to dominate all in combat. All the above classes can last all day and more than one combat or scenario in a day, if not multiple.
I mean to say the classes of D&D are more balanced now than ever, and that all classes will have there moments. But, and a big but at that!...
I have in my experiences with Wizards, Sorcerers, and Psion’s noticed they may have 1 or 2 spells(powers) to use in any given combat/situation (still comparing 1st level) and they quickly become a dependant for the rest of that day. Many people will say they are quite capable to use a weapon when they have to, but let’s be realistic. When I think of melee terrors a Mage with a 12 AC, (and that’s assuming he has a 14 dex) armed with a staff doesn’t exactly send chills down my spine. So they may be equal for a few rounds, heck they might even do a great job, but by no means are they going to weather nor endure a large combat scenario and especially not 2 combats in the same day. Their best at sitting as far away as possible and firing an X-bow; if they are even proficient with one. They must strategically place their spell and hope for failed saves and then run away, find a safe area to read a scroll and repeat.
Now at 5th level, I have admittedly found a great balance with all classes. Think about your campaigning and at about this level all classes are equally capable. The rogue with a couple of well placed feats and skills can be involved on a competent level in most situations. The Cleric in my opinion dominates with his coupling of melee ability, spell selection, healing etc; still, everyone’s best friend. His “buff” spells are unrivaled. Rangers are casting a couple of spells, have excellent skills and are arguably the best archers. We as a house rule don’t believe in the free two wep. Style allotted for Rangers. Why would a woodsman, tracker have access to this? One would think fighters would receive this instead. Monks and bards are using their abilities on par with everyone else. Fighters are still the melee juggernauts. And Wizards, Sorcerers and Psion’s have moved up to be equals...........everyone lived happily ever after, right?
No! Let’s now compare at 10th level. All classes are dominating in their specific fields. Fighters are unrivaled in melee, but lack the skills of barbarians and rangers. Paladins lack the feats of a fighter but make up with healing ‘lay on hands” saving throws and other spell like abilities, and low level spells. Barbarians are good in rage but the AC is a problem, Rogues are still an asset to the party, as they always have been, but begin to loose ground. Monks have a damage causing handicap and their AC sucks! But they have many abilities to make them worth while.......But now by far the spell casters are ahead of the pack. Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Psion’s roué the day. By now they can cast spells to make ½ of the Rogues abilities, obsolete. In most situations, the combatants are strategic ponds used to protect the spell caster as he is doing the real damage. Don’t get me wrong fighters are my favorite class-always a challenge and always fun! But at this level and especially higher it is magic that dominates and a fighter without it is dead! Period!
15th level and above. Magic and spell casters are 100% dominating all aspects of the campaign. Without magicals Rogues are informants for the mage, or at best a hitman! I know this will undoubtedly anger Rogue players, but it is simply the truth. Take magicals away and its 100% true. Fighters are body guards. Paladins are great face men with great abilities but are quickly over shadowed. They tend to be the parties second best combatant, the parties second best healer, although with a high charisma they may rival the clerics healing. Monks have some supernatural powers and that’s about it. They would lose 9 out of 10 fights with a fighter. And for a class that is supposed to be solely
a melee combatant they are in big trouble, they need to reli on the hail mary, touchdown. Basically they need to roll a crit to reli threaten the life of a fighter. Bards are surprisingly fun and are truly good at everything but specialized in nothing. They are second at just about everything-why, because of spells. Clerics Wizards and Psions are at this level living gods...

NOW I KNOW MANY OF YOU HAVE YOUR FAVORITE CLASS AND ARE LOYAL TO IT, BUT BY 10TH/15TH LEVEL ALL THE WAY THRU EPIC IT IS THE MAGICALS AND SPELLS OF A PARTY THAT DICTATE SUCCESS OR FAILURE...

I would appreciate your input and comments, but keep in mind Im new to this site, be gentle.

Sir ThornCrest-...INCIDENTAILLY MY FAVORITE ALL TIME PC AND A FIGHTER/PALIDON GOT TO 18TH LEVEL AND WAS KILLED BY A 13TH LEVEL EVIL WIZARD.......I wept!

 

[Abstraction]

Disagree, very much. You interpretation of fighters as the mere bodyguards for wizards could just as easily be interpreted as the wizards being mere fire support for the fighters. etc, etc, bla bla bla. None of the classes work well by themselves. That is what we call balance. None of the classes work very well with three other guys exactly like them. What works best is (wait for it) balance. Another important consideration, of course, is the level of magic in the game. Do the characters we are talking about have the appropriate magic items for their level? Oftentimes it seems like the wizard or cleric rule if you are comparing just the class and not the equipment. Non-spellcasters depend very much on their magical gear. Conversely, spellcasters get much less out of magical gear. In the end, it all (wait for it again) balances.

 

[JackGiantkiller]

Actually, I had a party of four fighter manage enemies of 4 CR higher than them quite handily, with neither mages nor clerics available. They had one rogue. They killed a dragon of CR 4 higher than party level in two rounds. With no magic items. The only thing I took away from the Dragon was spellcasting. They schooled it. They probably would have beaten it worse if had taken the time to cast spells...as they were using clever tactics. Any character class can be just fine without the others...it all depends on how they are played.

Sir Thorncrest...Wizards come into their own at higher levels, yes. But they are best at killing large numbers of mooks. The fighters still trump them for taking down individual foes, becaus at higher levels, most foes have SR and immunities, as well as high saves. So...Like Abstraction, but for differing reasons, I disagree.

 

[fafhrd]

I've got to disagree with Abstraction's point on party balance as well. The group I DM consists of a fighter/wizard, a sorceror, a druid, and a fighter/cleric and all of them but the cleric allergic to melee combat. Doesn't matter though, because before the cleric can even get into melee, the enemies are reduced to smoking boots. So much so, that the cleric is now resorting to blasting as well. It's rather irritating. You might be surprised to see what four standard actions can do when they're all devoted to evocations. Last session I ran a trio of augmented golems against them thinking I was going to finally get some excitement. Well the fighter/wizard decided to use his arcane strike feat for the first time(which he had had for 3 levels) and the druid summoned a gaggle of critters and the golems were toast, spell immunity or no.

 

[Thanee]

Magic in all forms dominates high level play, that's definitely a given.

Bye
Thanee

 

[LostSoul]

I wouldn't say that it is the ability to cast spells in combat that makes Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, and Clerics better than the other classes; it's their ability to cast spells out of combat than can dictate the terms of any combat, and their ability to create magic items, that make them overshadow any other class.

If you looked at the game world as something independant from the game, Fighters would be nothing more than well-paid bodyguards for Wizards and Sorcerers. Rogues and Rangers would always be hiding out, worried about the next Scry-Teleport assault by the Grand Overlord's men. Barbarians can run but they can't hide, and in the end they'll end up Charmed or worse.

All the non-casting classes are totally dependant on magic items, so in an indirect way, they are totally dependant on sympathetic casters (or dead ones).

If you decided to run your game in a way that "made sense" (ie. by not having PCs always come up against encounters with an EL no greater than their EL + 4), your 3rd level PCs who were beginning to cause problems for the Lichking are going to end up on the wrong end of some sort of Divination. Or they could just diddle around with minor encounters, never becoming a thorn in the Great Emperator's side, killing rats in the sewers and hunting down criminals.


But this is a game where all that is thrown out the window because we want to have fun.