Classes and Levels or Point buy

Classes/Levels or Xp Point Buy


Merlion said:
Yes thats what I've been trying to get at also but was having trouble expressing. Magic in point buy systems often tends to be a bit boring. I like broad magic systems that you can do many things with, but the magic in point buys is generally so lacking in definition you end up unable to do a lot of things. Complicated effects like the Prismatic spells, Mordenkainen's Mansion, indeed a lot of utility type things are often largely missing from those systems.

I agree with this to a certain extent, but I have to admit the one thing I liked about point-buy spellcasting (specifically in Fantasy Hero or RuneQuest) is that you can cast that spell as many times a day as you want, as long as you have the mana endurance/power to expend for it. I like the concept of Vancian magic, and I love the variety of spells in D&D, but I hate worrying about spells per day. And I dislike the spell level adjustment created by metamagic feats. That's my biggest turnoff to playing spellcasters in D&D.
 

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GlassJaw said:
You mean you'll actually have to *gasp* create a character concept instead of having the class define it for you?
Heh, what a snobbish comment. I love creating characters, and I can do it just fine in such a system, thanks. I just don't prefer it. Is that clear enough for you?
 

is that you can cast that spell as many times a day as you want, as long as you have the mana endurance/power to expend for it. and I love the variety of spells in D&D, but I hate worrying about spells per day


Well personally, I dont feel a lot of difference in spell slots or mana/points/whatever. My big thing is having the resource, and the specific spells you have availble in a day be the same thing, as it is in D&D, and I dislike having to "prepare" multiple "copies" of a known spell in order to be able to cast it more than once.


Thats why I love the AU magic system. Slots basically become just a resource that represents how many spells of a given level you can cast...and you only have to "ready" a spell once to cast it as long as you have enough of the right slots. And you can diminish or heighten spells as you go along



And I dislike the spell level adjustment created by metamagic feats


Try one of the Spontaneous Metamagic variants from Unearthed Arcana, especially the "daily uses" version. The level adjustment is still there...sort of...but you dont actually use a higher level spell slot, and you dont have to prepare it ahead of time. You just get limited daily uses, and you can still only apply the feat to certain spell levels.


Or of course in AU, Modify Spell lets you get a variety of "metamagic" effects by using 2 spell slots instead of one
 

I prefer point buy over class and level. It's been my experience that the point buy system works better for a more conceptualized character allowing a player more freedom to make their character customizable and more importantly, unique.
I like to read, and therefore read a lot, mostly sci-fi/fantasy. Rarely do I see a character in a book that fits a description from a rigid class and level style rpg. Instead, most book characters seem to be a blend of several aspects of multiple classes. In D&D terms (especially) this often requires a player to extensively multi-class to try and base a character off of one from a book.
It's just my opinion, but rigid class and level systems seem to make for rather two dimensional cardboard cutout characters, which are good for fast playing hack-n-slash games. Where I find the point buy system allows for a more rounded multi-dimensional character (depending on the system is question).
As a gm, I use a point buy system for my campaigns and it takes some work to keep things balanced, but at the same time I work with the player when it's time to spend points to keep the character from becoming an unbalancing factor (I'm old school in this regard, as gm I have the final say so).
 

I didn't vote, as I prefer a system that has both. Levels are basicaly a means of keeping track of overall character power / ability while also directing it towards certain areas so as to keep an overall sense of balance. I would like a system that has levels, but upon gaining a level one basically gains skill points in various categories, based on class level. So a fighter gain combat skill points, casters gain magic skill points, and experts gain general skill points.

To make it more interesting, state that language, knowledge, etc are separate categories, and differing classes might get more in one than another. Finally, finish it all off with xp gained through skill usage. Using 2d10 - so that 10 / 11 are common while 2 / 20 are rare - have perhaps 1 xp gained for 8 - 9, 2 xp gained for 10 - 11, 3 for 12 - 13, etc. Each level would have to require a set amount of xp (perhaps 1000, or maybe only 500 or so), as raising ranks would decrease what was needed for success until no xp was gained for attempting a task too easy.

Finally combine it all with a Wound / Stamina system where Wounds are based on Con and Stamina on Str - removing HD from the equation. If mana is based of Cha, and bab / def / caster level are replaced with skill ranks, then suddenly you have a quasi-levelless system that still has levels due to the timing of allotting skill points and classes due to where said points are allotted. Allow a double Int bonus as skill points that can be placed anywhere and a minimum of one skill point in every field every level, and you have plenty of versatility. Allow feats every other level, with liberal use of feat chains (or something like what is in Iron Heroes, perhaps). The odd levels out would receive Talents, which could be used to gain the various not-quite-feat abilities (Aura of Courage, Evasion, Leadership, etc). Oh, and I would throw in something akin to armor as DR, as the skills Dodge and Parry allow one to avoid (or deflect) an attack. Armor eats up part of attacks that get past whichever of these is used (as a contested combat roll against the foe's weapon skill roll).

It would be a (much much) more complicated system, but it would be very interesting and a little more realistic, I think. I've tried to create such, but the magic skill part is difficult to create and even harder to balance (using something vaguely similar to EoMR with casting DCs, mana points, and wild magic effects for failed rolls thrown in - as well as my own version of an elemental system). Determining feat / talents and whether or not they should be separated by type (combat, casting, general) and whether class gained feats should be limited to a type can also be difficult. In the end you really, for base classes, have to use generalities (warrior, caster, expert) or perhaps mixes of them (warrior-caster, caster-warrior, expert-caster, etc, each with its primary and secondary focus). I haven't even attempted a stab at creatures yet, but I would treat that a little differently also. I would have to, really, just to have it actually mesh with the rest of this. :D
 


It depends, I really enjoy both but I do prefer class/level based over points cost where that system fits the setting.

For D&D/fantasy classes work best IMO, but Vampire wouldn't work with that at all and is better as a point cost for example.
 

Nyeshet said:
I didn't vote, as I prefer a system that has both. Levels are basicaly a means of keeping track of overall character power / ability while also directing it towards certain areas so as to keep an overall sense of balance. I would like a system that has levels, but upon gaining a level one basically gains skill points in various categories, based on class level. So a fighter gain combat skill points, casters gain magic skill points, and experts gain general skill points.

Check out the following links then....

HARP Lite Free PDF - http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/3000L_HarpLite.pdf

HARP D20fied - http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/HARPd20fied.zip

HARP profession-less rules - http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2004/nov/professionlessharp.html

HARP level-less rules - http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2004/nov/irregularprogression.html

With those, I think you can get pretty much the system you described. :D
 

<shrug>

I really don't think that either system is inherently superior to the other. However I do think that both systems have very different impacts on the game, to the point that a game will feel totally different depending on which you choose.

Pros: Classes

-Easy to build/advance characters. Not just because most people are familiar with classes from DnD but because you are basically using "off the shelf" pre-packaged sets of abilities.
-Strongly reinforces archtypes: this is good for giving a campaign a coherent flavor and/or emulating a favorite genre.
-Strongly reinfroces roles within the group: this is good for a game built on player cooperation and teamwork.
-Strongly reinforces specialization: this is good for making sure that each player has "a moment to shine".


Cons: Classes

-Can become constraining if you want to build a character who breaks the mold of the established classes. Multi-classing and more "generic" classes alleviate this problem somewhat but only to an extent.
-Can easily over-emphasize the weaknesses of certain archtypes. "So, why can't my Fighter learn to apply battlefield first-aid?"
-Just generally offers fewer options than a point-buy character creation system.



Pros: Point-buy

-Offers as many options as the player and GM have creativity. Mix-n-match abilities to build the character you envision.
-Easy to add new abilities; simply assign an appropriate cost as compared with the existing set of abilities.
-Theoretically ensures characters will be unique and distinctive.
-Theoretically offers the GM great potential to invent unusual custom NPC's.

Cons: Point-buy

-Too many options can stifle creativity: players may be lost without direction or may all end up picking the most potent abilities (and thus be too similar).
-Generally speaking is more prone to powergamming abuses than a class system (espically if you start messing around with "defects").
-May be more work for the GM to develop NPC's than in a class system (not always true).
-Just generally is more complicated than a class system.


One more thing to consider. If you are looking to build your own system there are more class based OGL resources to raid than point-buy based. Off the top of my head the only point-buy OGL systems I can think of are Big Eyes Small Mouth d20 (very good game) and By the Numbers (havent' read it).

Hope that helps.
 

interwyrm said:
I prefer the freeform system. With a system like that, you can have a master carpenter or blacksmith who doesn't also have to have gobs of hp and good saves. You can also choose to round out your character with social skills or focus only on one small area.
Class and level systems don't prevent you from that.
In Rolemaster you can be Lvl 20 and have the hitpoints of a 1st level wizard, if you don't develop that area of your character.
The same could be done with other aspects of the character.
 

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