Classes need to be ready to go from the beginning

[Jer]

I cannot believe that someone don't see the ACTION behind this INT check: A PC is making a check for a special outcome from a Action he makes in the fantasy world, you know!?

Except that he's making the check and consistently FAILING because the mechanics give him about a 30% chance of success on the check. When you fail an Int check the action on the field is something like "I stand there and ponder the tactics of this situation (roll dice) huh - I failed to see good tactics with this situation." It's incredibly hard to even come up with some fun narration to wrap around a mechanic like that.

Meanwhile, your allies are swinging swords, tumbling through squares, throwing their shields up and throwing spells around. Even when they fail they are at least doing something dynamic that makes for a memorable game experience - failing to tumble by an ogre to prevent an attack of opportunity is a lot more memorable than failing to make your Int check to get your buddy a +2 bonus on his next attack.

And again: He should play a hunter because it is a hunter, not because he gets +x here and +y there. Or have I misunderstood "roleplaying" in last 14 years I am playing now, and should I choose in the future the races/classes for their boni?

Except the powers that Merric describes up there don't even sound like a "Hunter" to me - they sound like a support dude. If I want to create a character around a "Hunter" concept, my character is not going to be a support dude - he's probably going to be a kick-ass tracker and damn good with a long bow, but he's not going to be worrying about flanking and figuring out what kinds of tactics will help him support his buddies.

And, really, throwing out the "if you care about your character's stats you aren't really 'roleplaying'" argument is just strange when we're talking about D&D - D&D is one of the more stat heavy games out there, and given that there's nothing wrong with an expectation that the stats on a character support the concept for that character.

 

[Remathilis]

The issue Merric is talking about is the element of "Importance Factor". No one likes to be left out of a group. If everyone is having fun, you want to be part of that. Some people don't mind sitting in the shadows and quietly lending support, but I don't think a class (any class) should be built on that assumption. People want to make active choices. Choices that have "Importance". The time my cure spell saved Tordek's life is exciting, the time I gave Tordek a +1 to hit and fear saves is not.

Merric felt like his options (hence, his choices) were inconsequential. The monsters would have fallen just as well without his extra +2 to flank or his ability to ignore 1 point of cover AC. Compare that to magic weapon (which a fighter needed to defeat the grick's DR) and you see the difference.

We've all had fights were we have "nothing" to do in a round; the fighter vs a swarm, the rogue vs a golem, etc. However, some classes (looking at you bard) have "do nothing" as a pretty constant action (how's that +1 doing guys?) That not dynamic. Thats not fun. So hopefully, 4e will take that element of the leader to heart and add a "look what I can do" to the "look what I'm doing for you" classes...

 

[pawsplay]

I agree in concept, but in practice the classes that have tried to do this in D&D...mostly Bard and Cleric, have ended up being underpowered and overpowered, respectively, in terms of mechanics.

I don't find the Bard underpowered.

I do find the Cleric overpowered, but it was designed that way on purpose. You can run the numbers and see that it's overpowered.... cast in armor, more hp than wizard, same spell levels, more spells/day, plus turning, better weapons than wizard. They were more balanced in older editions, where top end spells were the province of wizards. I just don't know why they were designed the way they were, apart from people in Mearls's group not wanting to play a cleric or whatever.

 

[Merlion]

I don't find the Bard underpowered.

Underpowered is hard to determine. But it seems that for a bard to be effective at anything other than granting small bonuses to the party, one has to really know what ones doing and min/max like crazy.

I do find the Cleric overpowered, but it was designed that way on purpose. You can run the numbers and see that it's overpowered.... cast in armor, more hp than wizard, same spell levels, more spells/day, plus turning, better weapons than wizard. They were more balanced in older editions, where top end spells were the province of wizards. I just don't know why they were designed the way they were, apart from people in Mearls's group not wanting to play a cleric or whatever.

They felt that every group had to have a super-healer, but that nobody wants to play support alone (which is somewhat true) and so overpowered it to make it more attractive.

But I think the reasons people dont want to play Clerics are more conceptual.

Also, i truly believe theres a designer or two who just really like all the "Divine" stuff and so lavished gifts upon that catagory.

 

[Cadfan]

There is a difference between rolling to accomplish something like stabbing an orc, and rolling to accomplish something like providing a small bonus on your allies attack rolls if and only if they attack from a flanking position.

With an attack roll, I might miss.
With that ability, I might fail my roll, my allies might not be able to flank, THEY might miss, OR they might hit so well that my bonus didn't help.

Too many conditions.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well for starters, the War Leader feat which I believe you are refering to by the "make Intellegence check to give combatants +4 flank" actually is a standard action not entire round.
What other feat did you have? And your traits?
If you had Warleader 2 you could have made your allies get extra AoO. Which by the way are a lot more steamlined in IH, and tend to happen more often.
Also the class specifically mentions in the Hunter Strategy section:



So they pretty much told you exactly what you just found out.
Can you descibe the combat you were involved in? Was it just a flat, 30x30 room with nothing in it? If all you are doing is running around, hiding behind things that is not very Iron Heroesy, and I would question the DM as to why there weren't all sorts of Zones to exploit. Finally What kind of skills did you have? Hunters get a pretty good amount and have Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and Wilderness Lore skill groups. So they means you would have climb and jump... even use rope. You could have made a lasso and roped people up! Or used other skills along with stunts.

Indeed. And a higher level Hunter can be a phenomenal ally and tactical genius while also kicking butt himself. In my Iron Heroes: Twilight of Ulster Convention Game (a Celtic myth based IH game), Cormac, the Hunter, is always a crucial part of any effort. Tactics of the Mind grants brilliant benefits for a character with high Int (which a Hunter will probably have in order to make those Int checks), and if you take it along with War Leader, you get a +5 to those checks to gather the tokens, plus with the right feat choice (which he had), you can gather them as a Move Action rather than a Standard. Also, Assess Opponent is a huge boost--since you automatically start the encounter with half your level in the hunter class type tokens, you can just spend those to get the max Assess Opponent benefit against the strongest opponent (1 token gives +1 to hit and to defense against that opponent for the whole encounter, it's capped at half your level, so that fits perfectly).

Of course, Cormac was very complex to play. He had tons of uses for all his tokens, plus several combinations of token-gathering he could choose in lieu of a move action (or standard in the case of his class tokens).

 

[dystmesis]

Yeah, what feats did you take? As a hunter, you have excellent access to lore and tactics feats. You could bump up your intelligence to high levels and take weapon bond, and be a good combatant with your high int, or you could take the tactics of the mind feat chain and... be a good combatant with your high int. Did you consider venom mastery? You could sneak around with a hunter's huge skill points and stab and poison people! How awesome is that?

 

[Doug McCrae]

I do find the Cleric overpowered, but it was designed that way on purpose. You can run the numbers and see that it's overpowered.... cast in armor, more hp than wizard, same spell levels, more spells/day, plus turning, better weapons than wizard.

Plus two good saves, better BAB and domain abilities.

They were more balanced in older editions, where top end spells were the province of wizards. I just don't know why they were designed the way they were, apart from people in Mearls's group not wanting to play a cleric or whatever.

I'm pretty sure that's it. People weren't playing clerics so their power was increased. Same with the druid. Those are the two best classes in the game now, they have no weaknesses. At least the wizard has plenty of drawbacks to mitigate the power of his spells.

 

[Victim]

I cannot believe that someone don't see the ACTION behind this INT check: A PC is making a check for a special outcome from a Action he makes in the fantasy world, you know!?

If he makes a check and can support his allies in a fght, how can that be boring, please??
He makes something. He does something.

All the other PLAYERS are also only making checks, rolls with dices. Nothing more. So does the player of this hunter.

And his - the hunter's - actions are heroic: He gives his allies a tip how to best attack so they get ruleswise this special add to their roll.

How can that be BORING, please?


And again: He should play a hunter because it is a hunter, not because he gets +x here and +y there. Or have I misunderstood "roleplaying" in last 14 years I am playing now, and should I choose in the future the races/classes for their boni?

No, the benefit provided by the hunter's abilities is worthless at low levels. Aid Another is more effective.

Yeah, he could just take the survival skill with any other class to be a 'hunter.' The reason to pick the Hunter class is to gain its abilities.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I never believe there is nothing you can do. With a bit of creativity the weakest of characters could become a power house or have something to do. I think people tend to think if "Doing something" as in combat actions. Try using potions or scrolls or something else. Distractions. Try and losen Stalagites from the ceiling to hit the foe. Whatever. Your never helpless. Or maybe even try to reason with your foe. A highg enough diplomacy and a high enough check and hey this could change really quick.