Classic Dungeons: all of them to exist in the new edition

[Reaper Steve]

Spelljammer?
Psionics?
Illithids?
Warforged?

It's obvious how all sci-fi elements have been purged from the game over the years.

I know it was sarcastic, but it got me thinking:
Spelljammer: at its core, I liked it. Not in the sense of 'D&D in Space' but instead that I thought it was a perfect way to do the Astral Plane if one just took out the crazy stuff. I thought the 'Spider Moon' Spelljammer redux in Polyhedron was fantastic. I would not be surprised at all if the 4E Astral Sea resembled this. Nautiloids FTW!

Psionics: tough call. I really think that what a medieval society calls 'magic' a technological one calls 'psionics.' can they exist separately? Yes, if one embraces the concept that magic comes from elsewhere (deities, extraplanar, etc) and psionics come from oneself. D&D keeps trying, and getting closer, but hasn't succeeded yet, IMO. I hope they do with 4E. I also hope they ditch the scientific naming conventions as they are out of place in the parlance of a D&D world. (Someone mentioned Dark Sun. I remember liking the initial stuff, but then didn't keep up with it. I would like to see a 4E Dark Sun. That brings another thought...I can deal with a D&D world that has psionics instead of magic, but the goal of having both as equal partners in the same game world has not yet been effectively met.)

Illithids: Rock. End of story. If the rest of psionics can have as much style as an Illithid, then 4E will succeed in effectively integrating psionics.

Warforged: sorry, they go too far. I'm fine with golems, but anything further is sci-fi. The nearest exception is Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms and its warjacks. Very well done steampunk, but I prefer my D&D without them, too.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I guess that's just how things were back then. It having no overall plot elements aside from "There's stuff in there, let's go in", is really limited imho.

Eh, it works for Dungeon Crawl Classics. It lets you apply your own hooks.

 

[Korgoth]

Of course, Expedition To The Barrier Peaks was obviously written by some sci-fi obsessed hack with no understanding of what D&D was about.

Oh, wait, that was Gary Gygax, who only CREATED THE GAME!

What's that you say, there was a certain Dave Arneson also involved in creating the game, and who even had the first D&D campaign ever? Surely he didn't approve of the way Gygax distorted D&D by introducing sci-fi elements?

I'm sure he would have been outraged if not for the freakin' aliens, lasers and starships in his Blackmoor setting.

Somehow, I think the game's creators knew a little more about D&D than anybody mucking with it now.

This.

Jack Vance's "The Dying Earth", for example, takes place at the end of Earth's history. There are ruins left over from lost civilizations. You can find a flying car, for example.

S3 was so a D&D adventure. When did "fantasy" all of the sudden become Haiku, governed by strict rules of genre and content? It's fantasy. And in my fantasy world, a barbarian with a magic sword in one hand and a barely-understood blaster in the other gets along just fine, thankyouverymuch.

Nobody ever forced anybody to run S3, did they? But if I can have dragons and elves running around, I can have robots and ray guns too.

 

[Wormwood]

S3 was so a D&D adventure. When did "fantasy" all of the sudden become Haiku, governed by strict rules of genre and content? It's fantasy. And in my fantasy world, a barbarian with a magic sword in one hand and a barely-understood blaster in the other gets along just fine, thankyouverymuch.

Well said.

I'm actually saddened by Slavicsek's casual dismissal of Barrier Peaks---which examined future-tech from a uniquely fantastic point of view.

I had no idea that his take on "the D&D experience" was so narrow.

 

[delericho]

Okay, unless people start giving examples of Old vs Current modules and specifically how they were modular compared to these days, I Just Don't Get It.

If you look at, say "G1: Steading of the Hill Giant Chief", what you'll find (after the surprising thin-ness of the booklet) is that it pretty much includes only the adventure site and the monster details. It's entirely up to the DM to decide why the hill giants are a problem, why the PCs are going there, and so on and so forth.

Compare this with "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits", which spends thousands of words detailing the plottings of Lloth and Grazzt, provides extensive adventure hooks, and is split into distinct chapters with an over-arching plot line.

Is one approach better than the other? I don't know. The first is easier to refit for my own campaign, but the second is much easier to use as-is, and especially if it is the campaign.

I disagree, however, that this was a 2nd Edition innovation. The credit more properly goes to Tracy Hickman, who had backgrounds and plots in Rahasia (BD&D), Ravenloft (AD&D1e) and the Dragonlance modules (AD&D1e).

 

[Clavis]

This.

Jack Vance's "The Dying Earth", for example, takes place at the end of Earth's history. There are ruins left over from lost civilizations. You can find a flying car, for example.

S3 was so a D&D adventure. When did "fantasy" all of the sudden become Haiku, governed by strict rules of genre and content? It's fantasy. And in my fantasy world, a barbarian with a magic sword in one hand and a barely-understood blaster in the other gets along just fine, thankyouverymuch.

Nobody ever forced anybody to run S3, did they? But if I can have dragons and elves running around, I can have robots and ray guns too.

AMEN!

 

[Jhaelen]

I concur. No sci-fi in my fantasy, please.

Agreed.

Besides, I read somewhere a while back that the whole Barrier Peaks thing was to test some concepts of a forthcoming TSR sci-fi game... which I think eventually became Star Frontiers.

I think it's mentioned in the 2E re-release of the adventure (the one which also includes 'White Plume' and 'Tomb of Horrors' and ???).

I've run all except the 'Barrier Peaks' one, which I don't think would have appealed to any of my players. Actually I think, 'White Plume' was the only decent one of the whole bunch.

IMHO, just because something has been written by Gary Gygax doesn't imply it's great. I'm grateful for him bringing us D&D but I just don't like his preferred style for adventures.

I'd be happy to NOT see any of the classics redone for 4E. I want NEW adventures to become the classics of tomorrow!

 

[Festivus]

??

It's not like Barrier Peaks has had a really big impact on the game since. If anything, we've had nearly three decades of D&D trying to pretend it never happened.

all but the appearance of a Froghemoth in the Age of Worms adventure path (Champions Belt as I recall). To me, Barrier Peaks was D&D. My friends and I had a blast with that adventure, though the needle guns and whatnot were all considered wands to us.

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

Well said.

I'm actually saddened by Slavicsek's casual dismissal of Barrier Peaks---which examined future-tech from a uniquely fantastic point of view.

I had no idea that his take on "the D&D experience" was so narrow.

That struck me odd as well. His response seems a tad... pretentious.

I can see that it might not have mass appeal, but it was a facinating and unique module. That is what made it such a classic.

I myself never used it for AD&D... but I did incorporate it into a Gamma World campaign. The Jeff Dee picture of the high-tech Mind Flayer from the illustration booklet was the inspiration for making Mind Flayers an alien menace that instigated the apocalypse.


BTW: It was Metamorphosis Alpha that was the original inspiration for EttBP, not Star Frontiers.

 

[Davelozzi]

I wonder if this "fundamental different experience" is behind Bill's rumored distaste for Dark Sun.

Distaste for Dark Sun? Bill wrote the revised version of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. While I understand that most people prefer the original version, I would have trouble believing that the negative changes were a deliberate attempt at sabotage.