Classless, Levelless, Expless RPG's?

[Agback]

G'day

Game systems without classes and levels are very common. Ones that also lack experience points (under whatever name) are rarer.

The classic example would have to be the very successful RuneQuest, which has a learning-by-doing system supplemented by rules for training, study, and research. RuneQuest got generalised under the misleading title Basic Role-Playing, which was used as the engine for another very successful game, Call of Cthulhu, and for a few other, less popular instantiations.

I'm not certain of this, but I think that Pendragon might be another example.

Regards,


Agback

 

[WSmith]

Re: Big Eyes Small Mouth

I'd just like to throw in my favorite classless system, Big Eyes Small Mouth. I haven't seen another game able to handle powers of various sorts in as balanced a way as they do.

I used it to create my Harry Potter game.

Sorry for the quick hijack, but I have been wondering about BESM for a while. I am looking for a simple game and have told to check out BESM cause it does all genres and still remains simple. I would love to hear about you Harry Potter game, too. Do you have any posts elsewhere about it?

 

[maddman75]

I just played a Dark Conspiracy game this weekend - same system as twilight 2000, which people may be more familiar with. Classless and levelless, and there is XP, but it is only used for improving skills. A very gritty and realistic game, with decent handling of psionic/empathic abilities. I wouldn't call it balanced - the psions and sorcerers can do amazing thing, but it is very unreliable. I like guns - you know your gun is going to work .

Anyway, just wanted to make sure you knew the downsides to classless levelless systems. I saw them this weekend. First, its a lot harder on the newbies. When you can make 'anything', they either try to copy one of the existing characters (and become a poor shadow) or try to do everything and suck with all of it. Everyone needs a niche, and without classes the niches aren't predefined.

 

[Vaxalon]

Re: Re: Big Eyes Small Mouth

Sorry for the quick hijack, but I have been wondering about BESM for a while. I am looking for a simple game and have told to check out BESM cause it does all genres and still remains simple. I would love to hear about you Harry Potter game, too. Do you have any posts elsewhere about it?

I'm sorry, JKR has said that she doesn't want to see a Harry Potter RPG published at this time, and I respect her wishes. I can make it up myself, but I can't legally publish it.

 

[sword-dancer]

Saves I wouldn´t make skill, but i would made attribute dependend.
Fear mind, uinfluencing Will
Poison, Con
etc
Skills could be learned by doing or training, maybe a skill roll if the PC had learned something, out of the action.
best rules for this i found in harnmaster
http://www.columbiagames.com/

http://www.columbiagames.com/index2.html

or runequest

Here are a few links to classless free available systems.

but are all EXP depending, more or less,
http://www.fudgerpg.com/

http://drosi.tuts.nu/sos@io.com

http://drosi.tuts.nu/systeme/fuzion.htm

http://www.meta-earth.com/fuzion/core.html

 

[WSmith]

Vaxalon, I know about JKR and here disdain for a RPG. What I meant was, since I have been away from EN World for a while, did you post anything like a Story Hour about it. Again, I can see if you didn't cause of the fine line of messing with other peoples IP that was not intended for open ended RPGing.

On the matter of classless/level-less/XP-less, I am with maddman75 on the downsides for newbies. However if you are all experienced players, it could work.

Personally, I have been trying to figure out a way to do away with XP, and retain classes. (This is for my Classic D&D game and might or might not actually be a viable method for d20). Sort of a system where:

1. PCs go out and adventure
2. They do things on the adventure to make them more experinced and wise which leads to...
3. the PCs are able to gain CLASS abilities, i.e. go up in levels.

I am looking for a more subjective methed than numerical tracking EXP. I could just say at a certain point, you go up in level. I don't know, it will take some work. Since it is Basic/Expert D&D I don't have to worry about multi-classing concerns, which is a plus in trying to develop such a system.

 

[Garmorn]

Harnmaster is a levelless, classless system that does not use experence points. It is a precentage based skill system that allows you to try and improve a skill if used under stressfull conditions. It also allows you to try and improve 3 skills at the end of each month (or less often if the GM wants to slow things down). To improve a skill you must make a modified d100 roll and get higher then the current skill level. (I don't remmeber if the modifier was your stat or stat bonus or something similiar.)

To open skill requires a teacher for most skills, but some can be opened with out a teacher.

 

[Vaxalon]

Hey, if you want to handle "levelling up" free=form, go for it.

When you feel that it's time to level up, do it. Perhaps you can do it whenever the PC's accomplish something appropriate to their level.

 

[F5]

The skill advancement system in R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk game did something similar to the time/training-based improvement scheme you're talking about. Basically, skills had levels (essentially the same as Ranks in d20), and it cost 10 Improvement Points times the skills' current level to raise it to the next level. It cost 40 IP to go from +4 to +5, for example.
There were three ways to improve your skills: book-learning, training with a mentor, and real-world use. To learn from a book you were able to earn 1 IP per day of study, but could only go from levels +0 to +2 with this method.
You got between 1-5 IP per session by training with a mentor, but the highest levels you could learn depended on how good the teacher was (there was a Teaching skill, or something similar). The only unlimited way to advance (besides finding a batter teacher) was real-world experience. You got between 1 and 9 IP per game session for using a skill. 1 point for using a skill regularly, but without much success, and 9 points for using a skill in such a mind-bogglingly brilliant and original way that it brings tears to the DM's eyes.
Attacks are skill-based (stat+skill+1d10 roll), and are divided up into weapon types; you have a handgun skill, a heavy weapons skill, a brawling skill, etc. They improve like any other skill, through training or practice.
Most skill-based systems (this one included) differ from level-based systems in that skills are harder to raise as you get better. Once you get up into the +10 range of skill level, it takes a LONG time to earn the 100 IP you need to get to +11. Because of the CR-based XP system, you gain levels in a more linear fasion (they say the XP tables are based on 13 CR-appropriate encounters per level). Level-based skills and abilities advance in a predictable and steady way. It's not always logical, but it's predictable.
I've been thinking a lot about this lately, as you can see. I've been trying on and off to put together a d20 compatible skill-based system. I've found that by the time you account for all aspects of the level system, it's not d20 in any meaningful way, and so ultimately kind of a pointless exercise. But I'll probably still try...

 

[maddman75]

Vaxalon, I know about JKR and here disdain for a RPG. What I meant was, since I have been away from EN World for a while, did you post anything like a Story Hour about it. Again, I can see if you didn't cause of the fine line of messing with other peoples IP that was not intended for open ended RPGing.

On the matter of classless/level-less/XP-less, I am with maddman75 on the downsides for newbies. However if you are all experienced players, it could work.

Personally, I have been trying to figure out a way to do away with XP, and retain classes. (This is for my Classic D&D game and might or might not actually be a viable method for d20). Sort of a system where:

1. PCs go out and adventure
2. They do things on the adventure to make them more experinced and wise which leads to...
3. the PCs are able to gain CLASS abilities, i.e. go up in levels.

I am looking for a more subjective methed than numerical tracking EXP. I could just say at a certain point, you go up in level. I don't know, it will take some work. Since it is Basic/Expert D&D I don't have to worry about multi-classing concerns, which is a plus in trying to develop such a system.

Here's my system in 3e.

- Keep track of how many XP the players have
- When you want them to level up, give them enough XP to do so.
- Let them know you get XP for progressing the story, not for killing stuff.

Works wonderfully.