Cleave at the end of a charge....

[Hypersmurf]

At the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature.

Let's find a random quote from the SRD.

Two Weapon Fighting

If a combatant wields a second weapon in the off hand, that combatant can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and a combatant suffers a -6 penalty for regular attacks with a combatant's primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with a combatant's off hand.

A -10 penalty to the attack. I trust you don't subtract that penalty from the damage roll as well?

"Same bonus as the attack" is "same attack bonus". The two terms are equivalent.

-Hyp.

 

[Endur]

Cleave and FAQ

For what's it worth (and you might not care),

the FAQ takes the approach that a cleave attack is an additional attack. So, smite bonuses, true strike, etc. only apply to the original attack and not to the cleave attack.

The FAQ also takes the approach that you always get a cleave, no matter how you dropped the enemy. So, yes, you can cleave on a charge, no matter how unrealistic it is.

The FAQ doesn't say anything about whether charge bonuses apply on the cleave attack.

Tom

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Cleave and FAQ

The FAQ doesn't say anything about whether charge bonuses apply on the cleave attack.

Tom

But... charge bonuses (and penalties) are with you from when you charge until the beginning of your next round. So anything that you do until the beginning of your next round has those bonuses and penalties applied.

Mike

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Cleave and FAQ

But... charge bonuses (and penalties) are with you from when you charge until the beginning of your next round. So anything that you do until the beginning of your next round has those bonuses and penalties applied.

Read it again.

The bonus applies to the charge attack. The penalty lasts until the beginning of your next round. The two intervals are not identical.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

I think you guys are debating the wrong issue here. I don't think cleaving is allowed on a charge at all.

PHP: pg 124 charge section: "After moving, you may make a single melee attack....Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."

And as has already been pointed out, cleave allows an EXTRA melee attack. This would count as an extra attack for above, and wouldn't be allowed.

As discussed earlier, you can cleave off of an AoO. AoOs don't allow extra attacks from high BAB or multiple weapons. Therefore, you should be able to cleave off of a charge.

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Re: Cleave and FAQ

Read it again.

The bonus applies to the charge attack. The penalty lasts until the beginning of your next round. The two intervals are not identical.

-Hyp.

You are correct smurfy........

 

[melkoriii]

Let's find a random quote from the SRD.

Two Weapon Fighting

If a combatant wields a second weapon in the off hand, that combatant can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and a combatant suffers a -6 penalty for regular attacks with a combatant's primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with a combatant's off hand.

A -10 penalty to the attack. I trust you don't subtract that penalty from the damage roll as well?

"Same bonus as the attack" is "same attack bonus". The two terms are equivalent.

-Hyp.

“Same bonuses AS the attack” and “same attack bonuses” are two different things.

Same AS = All things the same.

Same attack bonuses = refers to the To Hit bonuses of the attack. This wording is more precise to what it is referring to.

"Same bonuses as the attack" refers to all bonuse of that attack.
(To Hit, Damage, etc.)
"Same attack bonus" refores to the bonus to attack.
(To Hit only)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Same attack bonuses = refers to the To Hit bonuses of the attack. This wording is more precise to what it is referring to.

"Same bonuses as the attack" refers to all bonuse of that attack.
(To Hit, Damage, etc.)
"Same attack bonus" refores to the bonus to attack.
(To Hit only)

"To Hit" is not a term that exists any more - the 3E term is "attack bonus". The "bonus of the attack" is the "attack bonus"!

A bonus to damage is a "damage bonus", not a bonus of an attack!

The SRD reference I quoted uses "penalty to the attack". It is referring to the attack roll, not the attack and damage rolls.

By your reasoning, if I confirm a critical with an attack, and double the damage, then a Cleave from that attack should also get doubled damage.

-Hyp.

 

[melkoriii]

"To Hit" is not a term that exists any more - the 3E term is "attack bonus". The "bonus of the attack" is the "attack bonus"!

A bonus to damage is a "damage bonus", not a bonus of an attack!

The SRD reference I quoted uses "penalty to the attack". It is referring to the attack roll, not the attack and damage rolls.

By your reasoning, if I confirm a critical with an attack, and double the damage, then a Cleave from that attack should also get doubled damage.

-Hyp.

I look at this like when programming.

An attack is class object (or template with basic properties.) Attack bonus, Damage bonus, are properties of that class object and are set at defaults when an instance is created.

Each attack is an instance of the class and then has situational modifications to its properties (Smite adds Things to Attack and Damage, Charge adds things to Attack and AC, etc.)

When they say “same bonuses as the attack” “attack” is referred to as the object (its parent object, the attack that gives the Cleave) not the property attack. So then you copy all properties of that object to create a new instance as it is referring to the bonus properties (all of them) of that object.

If you say “same attack bonus” You are referring specifically to the property “Attack bonus” of the parent object and so only copy that bonus to the child object.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then I ask again - in the case of a "-10 penalty to the attack", given that "the attack" is a class object, should you not apply that penalty to every property of the object?

If not, then how do you know which property to apply it to?

-Hyp.