Cleave at the end of a charge....

[LokiDR]

My interpretation of "at the same bonus" is that you don't treat it as an iterative attack and subtract 5. I wouldn't allow the Charge modifier to be used on the Cleave attack.

For more extreme examples, I offer you True Strike and Smite Evil.

-Hyp.

True strike and smite evil aren't the best examples, because they are magic and don't have to make any sort of sense. But here is my charging stab at making sense of this.

In the FAQ, true stike does not modify cleave attacks. True strike affects "the character's next single attack roll (within the duration of the spell)". Charge says "the combatant may make a single melee attack or a bull rush. The combatant gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll."

Charge does not say "the next single attack roll", it assumes that your attack action only includes one roll, so it says "the attack roll". Three suriken are one attack, albeit missle weapons. The question then is if cleave is part of "the attack" or an extra action you get.

Since they mention bull rush, but not other attacks, you could say charge can only be use for a simple attack or a bull rush. No charging grapples or trips. Since that doesn't make much sense to me, I think I will use an extended definition of "attack" to include any sort of roll to hit in melee.

It is a similar question to "can I cleave off of an AoO?" Since WWA as a standard action is a miscelanous standard action, I am pretty sure you can't AoO with it. Damn, and I was thinking about making a melee charging whirlwind character. My mistake.

edit: change sense of WWA as an AoO. I should preview these things.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is a similar question to "can I cleave off of an AoO?" Since WWA as a standard action is a miscelanous standard action, I am pretty sure you can AoO with it.

Huh? You can Cleave off an AoO, but WWA requires a Full Attack Action. No Whirlwinding as an AoO!

edit: Oh - do you mean a Ki Whirlwind? Even so, can't do it as an AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[CRGreathouse]

In my opinion, any modifiers that apply "for a single attack roll" do not get carried over into the Cleave attack.

"What he said"

 

[melkoriii]

Yup, but this is where Smite Evil causes a problem.

A first level Paladin with 14 Str and 16 Cha Smites a goblin. The goblin is evil, so the Smite takes effect. Tha Paladin's attack bonus is +1 (BAB) +2 (Str) +3 (Cha bonus from Smite) for a total of +6.

He drops the goblin, and Cleaves into the neutral dire rat... at the same bonus. The fact that the rat is neutral doesn't matter - the Smite checks for evil when it's declared. It found evil, so the bonus occurred, and Cleave uses the same bonus.

In my opinion, any modifiers that apply "for a single attack roll" do not get carried over into the Cleave attack.

-Hyp.

The concept of Cleave and Great Cleave is that you are making one single Swing/Stab with your weapon. IE two guys standing next to each other and you swing so hard that you cut though one and hit the next all in one blow.

This is why all modifiers are applied to the Cleave attack. If you used True Strike to kill one foe the attack was so precise that you hit the next foe with the same great force. Same with Smite. The Smite gives you more strength and accuracy that carry over to the next blow.

 

[maddman75]

The concept of Cleave and Great Cleave is that you are making one single Swing/Stab with your weapon. IE two guys standing next to each other and you swing so hard that you cut though one and hit the next all in one blow.

This is why all modifiers are applied to the Cleave attack. If you used True Strike to kill one foe the attack was so precise that you hit the next foe with the same great force. Same with Smite. The Smite gives you more strength and accuracy that carry over to the next blow.

You are confusing rules with flavor text. Find me something in the rules that suggest the second attack from cleave is not a seperate attack. The fact that you roll another die indicates that it is another attack.

In any case, how you do justify a character C completely surrounded by goblins G. He hits and drops goblin A and decides to cleave into goblin B.

GAG
GCG
GBG

How does he in a single swing manage to hit goblin A, then hit goblin B without hitting the goblins in between? And how would he do this with a dagger or rapier?

 

[MThibault]

It is a similar question to "can I cleave off of an AoO?" Since WWA as a standard action is a miscelanous standard action, I am pretty sure you can AoO with it.

But standard action and attack are not synonymous. Anything that you can do with a single attack, you can do as an AoO. You Trip as a single attack. You Disarm as a single attack. But you Whirlwind Attack as a Standard Action (hypothetically, outside the core-rules).

By your logic you could drink a potion or feint as an AoO because you can drink a potion or feint as a miscelaneous Standard Action.

In the SRD most (I wasn't too rigorous about checking this) of the actions that can be used in place of an attack roll are listed with a [Varies] action type because they can be used as part of a Standard, Partial, or Full Round Action, or as an AoO (which isn't an action-type at all).

Cheers

 

[LokiDR]

Huh? You can Cleave off an AoO, but WWA requires a Full Attack Action. No Whirlwinding as an AoO!

edit: Oh - do you mean a Ki Whirlwind? Even so, can't do it as an AoO.

-Hyp.

it should have been "can't" and has been changed

I have been convinced that Ki WWA is not an "attack" the way trip or grapple are "attacks" and as such would not work with AoO or charge.

I still think charge bonuses apply to cleaves. It is ambiguous either way.

 

[noretoc]

You are confusing rules with flavor text. Find me something in the rules that suggest the second attack from cleave is not a seperate attack. The fact that you roll another die indicates that it is another attack.

In any case, how you do justify a character C completely surrounded by goblins G. He hits and drops goblin A and decides to cleave into goblin B.

GAG
GCG
GBG

How does he in a single swing manage to hit goblin A, then hit goblin B without hitting the goblins in between? And how would he do this with a dagger or rapier?

I think this is a case where the DM shuold step in and say that the PC cannot attack b, instead he has to hit the goblin adjacent to a. I know the rules don;t sirectly say that, but it make much more sense for the concept and the spirit of the cleave. If the PC were charging with a lance, I would also only allow the cleave if the opponents were in line with eachother, otherwise it would not make sense. I know that this isn't stated, but in my opinion it fits much more.

 

[mo]

Cleave and Flying Kick

What would happen if a character has the flying kick feat from OA (double damage on a charge attack) and cleave? Would one do double damage on the cleave attack (or attacks if has great cleave). It seems to be that this might be a tad overpowered.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Cleave and Flying Kick

What would happen if a character has the flying kick feat from OA (double damage on a charge attack) and cleave? Would one do double damage on the cleave attack (or attacks if has great cleave). It seems to be that this might be a tad overpowered.

You use the same attack bonus, not the same damage modifiers. Even the people who think the charge bonus should apply to the Cleave attack are unlikely to argue that the double damage should apply as well

-Hyp.