Cleave: Give me room to work, my minions!

[Surgoshan]

Given that a first level creature has ~30 hit points, you'd need ten rounds to kill it with cleave. Or you could hit the creature for ~8 damage and then use cleave to kill the minion standing next to it. It really doesn't feel broken.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

The bag of rats problem seems to be very related to one problem I see with 4E in general and that is the granting of secondary effects based off of attacking other creatures. For the fighter this seems to be a leeser problem than with other classes. The problem is not that a bag of rats works with cleave, but that it is a vital part of equipment for the entire party.

The Paladin can grant AC to his allys but only if he hits something. No enemys close enough to hit this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Cleric needs to grant an extra save at the inn to save his poisoned ally, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlock needs to teleport but there are no enemies nearby this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlord needs to heal his buddy imediately and there are no clerics nearby, solution: bag-o-rats.

For the fighter at least the bag-o-rats seams like it wouldn't be that useful most of the time, but you never know. For him I wouldn't suggest carrying it himself, but mearly borrowing it when the rare circumstances it might be useful happen.

 

[Wolfspider]

I need to ask.

How the hell could you possibly have cleaved three giants?

First of all, I'm guessing these were hill giants so after a run they would have been 120 feet away while typical barbarian charge is 80 feet. I'm guessing haste is involved though that still leave me with the real mind twister :

They are Large (2x2 squares). You rarely enough have two within reach, I can't think of a probable scenario when three fleeing giants are within reach of the same weapon. They were fleeing in a tight, convenient, 'L' formation, or what?

Because it was a cool idea and the DM liked the idea of the PC looking badass.

 

[Derren]

The bag of rats problem seems to be very related to one problem I see with 4E in general and that is the granting of secondary effects based off of attacking other creatures. For the fighter this seems to be a leeser problem than with other classes. The problem is not that a bag of rats works with cleave, but that it is a vital part of equipment for the entire party.

The Paladin can grant AC to his allys but only if he hits something. No enemys close enough to hit this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Cleric needs to grant an extra save at the inn to save his poisoned ally, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlock needs to teleport but there are no enemies nearby this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlord needs to heal his buddy imediately and there are no clerics nearby, solution: bag-o-rats.

For the fighter at least the bag-o-rats seams like it wouldn't be that useful most of the time, but you never know. For him I wouldn't suggest carrying it himself, but mearly borrowing it when the rare circumstances it might be useful happen.

Thats a good post. I completely missed the other classes "on hit" abilities. Warlocks carrying a bag of rats as teleporting fodder around is very sensible, and also the warlords ability is usefull if it really heals permanently without using healing surges.

 

[D'karr]

The bag of rats problem seems to be very related to one problem I see with 4E in general and that is the granting of secondary effects based off of attacking other creatures. For the fighter this seems to be a leeser problem than with other classes. The problem is not that a bag of rats works with cleave, but that it is a vital part of equipment for the entire party.

The Paladin can grant AC to his allys but only if he hits something. No enemys close enough to hit this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Cleric needs to grant an extra save at the inn to save his poisoned ally, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlock needs to teleport but there are no enemies nearby this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlord needs to heal his buddy imediately and there are no clerics nearby, solution: bag-o-rats.

For the fighter at least the bag-o-rats seams like it wouldn't be that useful most of the time, but you never know. For him I wouldn't suggest carrying it himself, but mearly borrowing it when the rare circumstances it might be useful happen.

Well at least in Warhammer Fantasy RPG there is a profession "Rat Catcher." So maybe they were anticipating something.

 

[Starbuck_II]

The bag of rats problem seems to be very related to one problem I see with 4E in general and that is the granting of secondary effects based off of attacking other creatures. For the fighter this seems to be a leeser problem than with other classes. The problem is not that a bag of rats works with cleave, but that it is a vital part of equipment for the entire party.

The Paladin can grant AC to his allys but only if he hits something. No enemys close enough to hit this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Cleric needs to grant an extra save at the inn to save his poisoned ally, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlock needs to teleport but there are no enemies nearby this round, solution: bag-o-rats.
The Warlord needs to heal his buddy imediately and there are no clerics nearby, solution: bag-o-rats.

For the fighter at least the bag-o-rats seams like it wouldn't be that useful most of the time, but you never know. For him I wouldn't suggest carrying it himself, but mearly borrowing it when the rare circumstances it might be useful happen.

Nope. Warlocks text is enemy. I can't precieve you woulde call a rat the enemy. The others do say creature so they work.

 

[The Little Raven]

The bag of rats problem seems to be very related to one problem...

...a crappy DM with no common sense.

 

[Hussar]

And, Brown Jenkin, this seems to be the root of things.

3e tried to fix the "bag of rats" problems by trying to have a fixed rule for every possible eventuality. The problem is, it didn't work. There were still tons of corner cases that weren't covered by the rules. Look at the Rules forum here or at WOTC's forums and you'll see what I'm talking about.

4e, apparently, is taking a different direction. They are specifically empowering the DM to handle corner cases. They are saying, "Look, these rules work most of the time. The times where it doesn't? Well, that's what your DM is for."

Seems like they listened to all those people complaining how 3e disempowers DM's in favour of the rules.

 

[Wolfspider]

...a crappy DM with no common sense.

Hear, hear!

 

[Henry]

I need to ask.

How the hell could you possibly have cleaved three giants?

First of all, I'm guessing these were hill giants so after a run they would have been 120 feet away while typical barbarian charge is 80 feet. I'm guessing haste is involved though that still leave me with the real mind twister :

They are Large (2x2 squares). You rarely enough have two within reach, I can't think of a probable scenario when three fleeing giants are within reach of the same weapon. They were fleeing in a tight, convenient, 'L' formation, or what?

The giants double-moved because the DM didn't think in terms of the Run action.

The Giants were 3.0 Giants, Which weren't 2x2, they were 1x1. (2001, remember.)

The giants were in an L-shape when they finished running, which was absolutely damned beautiful for the Dwarf Barbarian (who had already gotten a whack on one when they ran past him).