Crothian said:
There true power comes from the spelllist. I'd shave it down depending on the god worshiped.
This is what I do.
And, gods are fickle. If an arcane caster gets a spell that you don't like, you have to come up with a reason to take it away from him. If a divine spell turns out to be something you don't like, the caster just doesn't have access to that spell when he prays the next day.
I like the idea of only getting one domain power... those powers can be very good. But I think that would be better tied to the god as well. If you have time to make up a diety system. Because some domain powers are better than others, and can easily see allowing a character to have both domain powers if they're two of the weaker powers.
I'd probably let them keep armor proficiency. They need it, it's not too much.. Clerics and pure fighters are nearly the only people I ever see wearing more than light armor! Well, there was a paladin once. The only paladin I've ever seen played well (Read: Not Annoying), too. I'm impressed with that guy.
I'm still undecided on the idea of domain slots being a cleric only ability. But it does make sense. I can see it as a pretty good nerf. Not too harsh, they should be giving up some things when they PrC!
Drugged Dwarf said:
especially if you have a DM that enforces the fact that divine spellcasters NEED to sleep 8 hours a day before they can get their spells back. If ambushed late at night, and not allowed to go go straight back to bed for the Sleep Interruption rule in the same section to take effect, some clerics will offically miss their hour of prayer, and not have any spells that day. If anything, that limits them to becoming fighters for that day (hence the need for the armour).
Is this actually in there? I mean, I know/knew about the only once per day thing, and only getting their spells at a set time (usually dawn or dusk IMC's), but we recently had a game wherein sleep was a factor, and a short rules search determined that clerics don't actually need to sleep at all, just to pray at dawn or dusk. It's only the arcanists that get screwed if they don't get sleep.
Drugged Dwarf said:
However: I believe there are some prestige classes that A) grant you a bonus doman and B)need a domain to get into. In which case, I believe they should keep THAT domain spell, and when they gain a new bonus domain, gain spell slots for it to be kept in as well. It would make sense as that would be the granted power they would develop in thanks TO the prestige class.
I completely agree with that. A good point, one I hadn't thought of... and just the type of thing I meant when I said I was undecided about the issue originally.
So yes, with this exception I think it would be a fine nerf.
cmanos said:
I think the reasons they made Cleric and Druid more powerful is because no one wanted to play them.. Clerics were just walking ambulances. Now they are SO much more.
Almost certainly true. I used to have to grant them all kinds of bonuses to entice someone to play one, and they still generally wouldn't. But now I do think that they have too much. Not a lot too much, but too much.
Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
Ah Ha!
And this was the justification by which we determined that the clerics didn't need to actually sleep at all. "Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells." And, if you look at their spells, one of them removes fatigue. Cast that one every day and never sleep again.
harmyn said:
Before you make too many changes stop and think, will you have to beg players to get one to be a cleric, or will someone in the group "take the hit" and play one just 'cause their friends badgered them into being the party healer. Even now I have groups where people are somewhat reluctant to play a cleric, but now after some talk typically someone can find an image they want to get behind on it. Wizards are a whole different story though for another post.
This is an important point. But I think it depends a lot on the players. I know of games where the GM has to beg the players to NOT play a cleric. When they're really getting into the power of the cleric, it's time to tone the class down. But if in your campaign the cleric's are still rare, or people don't normally play them, then you should probably allow them to remain as powered as they are, potentially overpowered as that might be.
iksander said:
Truthfully Harmyn I agree with ya. The cleric is a strong class. Despite this it still takes pulling teeth to get people to play one. The Idea of cleric = Band-aid, just doesnt seem to die.
You want to kill this off? It's easily done. Simply allow ALL casters to spontaniously cast cure spells. Yes, arcanists too. I did that in the game I'm currently running and the wizard actually complained! OK, so I gave him weaker versions of the healing spells, but that's not what he was complaining about. He didn't want to be able to do it. Of course, too late, he is. Now he just doesn't want the other players to KNOW about it!
^_^
