Cleric nerf feedback.

[glass]

Of course. I don't think however clerics are boring, and I don't see why some think so: they can fight, they can cast spells; arcane casters don't fight and combat classes cannot cast.

I don't necesarily agree that clerics are boring to play, or at least not because they can heal, but I just thought it was a reall odd argument.

It is possible that the designers have conceived the cleric as the slightly better class, because of the in-built "cost" of casting spells to heal others. But I don't think the core cleric is more powerful after all.

I am sure the cleric's power level is deliberate, but I still don't think it should be. All spellcasters* have spells which help the rest of the party, but they don't get a personal pwer boost for it.


glass.

* well, maybe not all, but most

 

[iwatt]

Construct a 'universal' domain that all clerics gain access to.

Well, who's up to helping me choose the universal school? I'd give it the first start (I'd really keep the Universal school simple and linked to the "classic cleric sctick" of protecting/healing)
Initially I'm ignoring the whole raise/ressurect/true resurrect spells because not all clerics should be able to ressurect (i.e only clergy of death god for example).

Please, if you disagree with a selection, state a reason.
If you want to add as selection, also state a reason.

Well the Universal spells are marked in Boldface . This is a rough first draft.

Spell List
CLERIC SPELLS



0-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (ORISONS)
Spell Name Brief Description
Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Inflict Minor Wounds: Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.

1ST-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Bane: Enemies take –1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water M: Makes holy water.
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Curse Water M: Makes unholy water.
Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Doom: One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Magic Stone: Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.

2ND-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Augury M F: Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Consecrate M: Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Death Knell: Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Desecrate M: Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Find Traps: Notice traps as a rogue does.
Gentle Repose: Preserves one corpse.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Make Whole: Repairs an object.
Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage.
Silence: Negates sound in 15-ft. radius.
Sound Burst: Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Status: Monitors condition, position of allies.
Summon Monster II: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.

3RD-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Animate Dead M: Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Bestow Curse: –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
Continual Flame M: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness: Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
Glyph of Warding M: Inscription harms those who pass it.
Helping Hand: Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Meld into Stone: You and your gear merge with stone.
Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Speak with Dead: Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Stone Shape: Sculpts stone into any shape.
Summon Monster III: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk: Subject treads on water as if solid.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.

4TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Air Walk: Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Control Water: Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Divination M: Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Giant Vermin: Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Imbue with Spell Ability: Transfer spells to subject.
Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Planar Ally, Lesser X: Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Restoration M: Restores level and ability score drains.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Summon Monster IV: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Tongues: Speak any language.

5TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Atonement F X: Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Command, Greater: As command, but affects one subject/level.
Commune X: Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +4 bonus against attacks.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage). sacred cow
Hallow M: Designates location as holy.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass: Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Insect Plague: Locust swarms attack creatures.
Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Plane Shift F: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Raise Dead M: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.
Slay Living: Touch attack kills subject.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Pain M: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep M: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.
Unhallow M: Designates location as unholy.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.

6TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Animate Objects: Objects attack your foes.
Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass: As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/ level.
Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Bull’s Strength, Mass: As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Create Undead: Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
Forbiddance M: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Glyph of Warding, Greater: As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 6th-level spell.
Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass: Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass: As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Planar Ally X: As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
Summon Monster VI: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Fear M: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
Symbol of Persuasion M: Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Undeath to Death M: Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Wind Walk: You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Word of Recall: Teleports you back to designated place.

7TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Blasphemy: Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects.
Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Destruction F: Kills subject and destroys remains.
Dictum: Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects.
Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Holy Word: Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass: Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.
Restoration, Greater X: As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M: Fully restore dead subject.
Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
Summon Monster VII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Stunning M: Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
Symbol of Weakness M: Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
Word of Chaos: Kills, confuses, stuns, or deafens nonchaotic subjects.

8TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Create Greater Undead M: Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Holy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Planar Ally, Greater X: As lesser planar ally, but up to 18 HD.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass: Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Shield of Law F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater: As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Summon Monster VIII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Death M: Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
Symbol of Insanity M: Triggered rune renders nearby creatures insane.
Unholy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.

9TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Spell Name Brief Description
Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate X: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
Implosion: Kills one creature/round.
Miracle X: Requests a deity’s intercession.
Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
True Resurrection M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.


Also, I see adding specialty speheres through domains mostly. i.e a typical War Cleric would get: Universal, War, Strength, Protection. He's also get to choose his domains from among these same Spheres. I'd probably add other spheres according to flavor (i.e dwarf war-god Law + Dwarf + Earth; Bezerker: Chaos + Destruction )

NOTE: I took this list from an online SRD. Any missing core may be added.

 

[Thanee]

Cleric's have no reason not to PrC!?

There are very few PrC out there, which retain the cleric's huge class progression.

I think cleric is one of the classes, which really does not gain much in power by picking up a PrC (there are exceptions, of course, like that Radiant Servant of Pelor).

Other than that, I agree with Crothian on the spell list part.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, who's up to helping me choose the universal school? I'd give it the first start (I'd really keep the Universal school simple and linked to the "classic cleric sctick" of protecting/healing)
Initially I'm ignoring the whole raise/ressurect/true resurrect spells because not all clerics should be able to ressurect (i.e only clergy of death god for example).

Please, if you disagree with a selection, state a reason.
If you want to add as selection, also state a reason.

I'm not sure, are you trying to shorten the generic cleric list here? Are you suggesting that ONLY the spells in bold are for every cleric, while the others will stripped from the list and available only from domains? Or are they available another way? Just asking, because I'm not sure...

Two years ago I sat down an evening and tried to do the same. I took the (3.0) cleric list and chose only those spells which IMO fit with every cleric of every faith. After that, I however also changed the domains so that each domain had more spells than normally. I don't have those notes anymore, but I can try to remember something if you're interested...

As a general take, I remember that I was trying to keep all the healing, protection, alignment-oriented and summoning spells available to every cleric, except perhaps a couple of the most powerful (such as Mass Heal and True Res IIRC) that were exclusive to some domains.

 

[iwatt]

I'm not sure, are you trying to shorten the generic cleric list here? Are you suggesting that ONLY the spells in bold are for every cleric, while the others will stripped from the list and available only from domains? Or are they available another way? Just asking, because I'm not sure...

Two years ago I sat down an evening and tried to do the same. I took the (3.0) cleric list and chose only those spells which IMO fit with every cleric of every faith. After that, I however also changed the domains so that each domain had more spells than normally. I don't have those notes anymore, but I can try to remember something if you're interested...

As a general take, I remember that I was trying to keep all the healing, protection, alignment-oriented and summoning spells available to every cleric, except perhaps a couple of the most powerful (such as Mass Heal and True Res IIRC) that were exclusive to some domains.

right now I'm just brainstorming. Generally I don't have a problem with the power of clerics. I do find them to generic. Domains kinda a fix this, but not completely. So to make it clearer this is my mission statement

1) All clerics have the same basic spells + they also have acces to additional spells through "spheres".

2) The Universal spells are:....... to be completed (the ones in bold are a preliminary draft).

3) The spheres are:....... to be completed (could basically be Domains, or might as well create spheres once again. I like your idea of expanded domains though.

4) Clerics still choose 2 domains (based on Core domains) they start with. These come with domain powers and domain spells as usual.

5) I don't want to mess around with other stuff like skillpoints and armor feats.


Basically, I want to see if it's possible to give clerics different flavor thorugh modifying spell lists. and try to do it in a simple manner as well. you know, KISS (keep it simple stupid )

 

[Endur]

I think the domains are the best part about the cleric class, so I would leave the domains alone.

I would change the cleric class by getting rid of the medium and heavy armor profiencies. I would also give the cleric a d6 for hit points.

In exchange, I would give the cleric weapon profiency with the deity's favored weapon.

 

[iwatt]

I think the domains are the best part about the cleric class, so I would leave the domains alone.

I would change the cleric class by getting rid of the medium and heavy armor profiencies. I would also give the cleric a d6 for hit points.

In exchange, I would give the cleric weapon profiency with the deity's favored weapon.

So you'd reduce their defensive abilities, but give them a better weapon. :\

The reason clerics get Heavy armour as an option is simply beacuse Dexterity is usually the dump stat for "typical" clerics (please avoid inserting your elevn archer cleric who runs around in underwear due to a 30+ dex ).

If you take away their armor and their hps, it doesn't matter if they get a Greatsword as the deity weapon, they just won't go stand in front as a backup fighter.

 

[ARandomGod]

Basically, I want to see if it's possible to give clerics different flavor thorugh modifying spell lists. and try to do it in a simple manner as well. you know, KISS (keep it simple stupid )

Hrmm..
IMC I give the clerics a *spell list*.
On the other hand, I pick it like this:
Player: I want to play a cleric. I figure half the party died last time including me and that wouldn't have happened (especially to me!) if I'd've had a cleric.
Me: "OK" (Thinking: Good! Now I can shelf that healing magic item I was thinking of giving out to the players... )
Me:"Now, I'm going to restrict your access to spells a little bit. Pick ten spells for each spell level. Then add one spell per spell level for each character level that you've previously been able to cast spells of that level to the list.

Or to say. At level one you get access to 10 spells, At two 11 spells. At three 12 first level spells and 10 second level spells. At four 13 first level spells and 11 second level spells.

Hand the spells in to me for approval and I'll mark out the ones your god doesn't give you access to. You can repick for those. Anytime you want to change one of these out, hand me both spells and pray on it. I'll get back to you when your god decides.

+++++

OK, so it's not much of a "nerf", but I like the lesser spell list, it lets me keep track of what the cleric CAN do, as opposed to needing to read up on all spells in exsistence. Sort of like a wizard's spellbook. ALthough, unlike with a wizard, if I (err, the god) decides to remove the a spell from the character's spell list, the god doesn't need ANY explanation. "Because I said so" is a perfectly good reason when a god says it.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Cleric's have no reason not to PrC!?

There are very few PrC out there, which retain the cleric's huge class progression.

I think cleric is one of the classes, which really does not gain much in power by picking up a PrC (there are exceptions, of course, like that Radiant Servant of Pelor).

Other than that, I agree with Crothian on the spell list part.

Bye
Thanee

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, Thanee, since the most a cleric loses in most prestige classes is turning ability. And in that case, you just take some Divine feats and use your turning for something else. The attack progression is usually the same, you can often get as good spellcasting, or close to it, plus nifty extra abilities. I'm not really seeing any reason NOT to go for a prestige class, unless the campaign revolves around killing the undead. And even then you have the Radiant Munchkin of Pelor and the Sacred Exorcist (at least) that can still turn...

 

[Nifft]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, Thanee, since the most a cleric loses in most prestige classes is turning ability.

I think Thanee's looking at the Core PrCs, like Loremaster and Thaumaturgist, which have lower HD, BAB and saves than the Cleric.

-- N