Cleric nerf feedback.

[cmanos]

I don't see anywhere that it says a cleric can only prepare a given spell once a day.

I think this is what he means

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

The thing that limits clerics is something no one ever plays....theyr god's tenets. What does the god require of the cleric? How must the cleric act? I'm playing a Cleric of the God of Strength. He tends to charge into combat without thought, often throwing down his greatsword to wrestle a foe into submission. Not really the safest thing for a cleric to do, but it is what a priest of strength would do. Save spells to heal friends? BAH! They should be strong enough to handle it. Buff yourself up!

 

[iksander]

A simple nerf is to give the cleric a sorcerer's spell progression. Another simple nerf is to get rid of domain abilities. Let the cleric keep the spells, but the freebies can be killed. It allows for clerics to maintain flavor while removing the virtual feats that the domains provide.

 

[Aaron2]

This makes it very hard to play a cleric, especially if you have a DM that enforces the fact that divine spellcasters NEED to sleep 8 hours a day before they can get their spells back.

From the SRD (also page 179 of the PHB)
"However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells."

Only Arcane spellcasters need the 8 hours of rest.


What I do:

-Domain spells can be spontaneously cast
-No bonus domain spells (this way they use the same chart as the druid and (my) shaman)
-Only one domain at first level.
-Bonus feats as Wizard. A new feat allows the choice of another domain.
-No turning undead (or at least not like the RAW)
-No spontaneous healing spells (that's what the healing domain is for). Instead they can convert any spell to a ray of positive or negative energy at 1d8 per spell level. This heals people and damages undead.


Aaron

 

[harmyn]

Do you have lots of players who all want to be a cleric? Is this a recurring issue in your games? I am just curious because I do agree that the Cleric is most likely a broken class. It was made broken on purpose though because people as a rule did NOT want to play the party's healer. Having to burn all the kewl spell options to treat the sick and play an important part AFTER the fight. Also their other super-kewl ability is only against undead and compared to it in previous editions the new rules have actually tone that power down somewhat.

The cleric was always a second-string fighter type, but with it sharing the thief's (*yes I said thief's and not rogue's*) attack chart that has been diminished. Their heavy armor and d8 HD help keep that illusion alive.

Before you make too many changes stop and think, will you have to beg players to get one to be a cleric, or will someone in the group "take the hit" and play one just 'cause their friends badgered them into being the party healer. Even now I have groups where people are somewhat reluctant to play a cleric, but now after some talk typically someone can find an image they want to get behind on it. Wizards are a whole different story though for another post.

Not the most productive towards your goals here, and for the record, your ideas do sound somewhat balancing, but ask if it has really been a problem in your games yet. And if somebody not playing a cleric complains about what all a cleric can do ask them if they want to be the party's cleric next time. If they say no, not really, not my thing, or any other sort of negative just politely look at the player in question and say, "And that's why they get all the goodies." Its like paying people more to work third shift in the real world. Its not 'cause the job is harder, its 'cause no one wants to do it if you don't.

 

[Paragon Kobold]

I use the spontaneous casting Cleric from UA. Not exactly a big nerf but at least it makes
him more focused on his domain spells, and removes the strange fact that the cleric has a lot more
spells to choose from than the Wizard, whose whole stick is casting spells.

I dislike rules that would make Prestige Classes less attractive. The problem with Clerics, fluff-vise
is that they are all much the same, despite serving different gods. Prestige Classes are a good way of
getting some diversity.

I have been toying with the idea of removing medium and heavy armor proficiencies, and instead
adding a specific bonus feat, depending on the god worshiped. I seems odd that becoming a
servant of the goddess of poetry and romance would involve training to use
full plate armor...

As for the Druid, perhaps one could give him slower spell progression (Bard-like?),
and instead some bonus feats? There are a lot of feats suitable for
Druids, considering that they can't take that many.

 

[iksander]

Truthfully Harmyn I agree with ya. The cleric is a strong class. Despite this it still takes pulling teeth to get people to play one. The Idea of cleric = Band-aid, just doesnt seem to die.

 

[Li Shenron]

I use the spontaneous casting Cleric from UA. Not exactly a big nerf but at least it makes him more focused on his domain spells...

I like the UA variant spontaneous divine casters a lot:

- spontaneous casting fits well with the idea that divine casters don't really "learn" or "understand" spells since they get powers through devotion (not study like a Wizard); spontaneous casting has the flavor of "look what I can do, but don't ask me how I do it..."

- it makes cleric of different deities really different, and what each cleric can do is much more in line with her faith than the generic core class

- it lowers the commonality of some clerical spells which IMHO don't fit with the generic cleric, such as Air Walk, Blade Barrier or Animate Objects

However it is not a nerf of the character, it is a nerf of the rest of the party A typical spontaneous cleric (unless she has the Healing domain) will have to learn healing spells separately, and that means to get to cast them ONE LEVEL LATER. It also means that - given the low number of spells known altogether - she won't be easily able to remove every possible affliction (ability damage, poison, disease, blindness, curse...). This will likely make the other characters complain...

But the Cleric itself is not nerfed IMHO! Compare a spontaneous cleric to the core Sorcerer.
- spells known are drawn from an overall weaker list
- two bonus spells known every odd level (tho you only choose the domains, not the specific spells)
- almost twice the HP, better BAB and slightly better saves
- turn undead instead of familiar (let's call this even...)
- armor proficiency + NO ARCANE SPELL FAILURE

I have no problems allowing the spontaneous Clerics IMC, but the only problem is that with the right domain AND spell selection you can very much approximate a sorcerer (albeit with less versatility) with much better defense. No ASF is great!

 

[Drugged Dwarf]

Another thing I have noted about clerics that was adressed by someone above:

1) People really do not like playing them. At all. I have been in about five different d&d campains in this past seven months of me playing, and I can tell you of all of them I have only ever seen one person other than me keen to play a cleric. Hell there are more people playing rogues out there and if that isn't wrong I don't know what is.

2)If anything, I think people are very very wrong in not truely playing clerics out. I have DM whom I play with every two weeks (bless his heart) and you will no BELIEVE the restrictions I have. You think druids and paladins needed to be played right, you got another damn thing coming. I have gone from owning my own global church, to running a secret holy service, to doing deals with the Lords of Dust, to being Geased by a planetar for not abiding by the rules of my church. Playing a walking ambulance is harder than you guys think!

Its the same way with druids. If you want to restrict them from being so nerf as you say, you have to focus more on the roleplaying. PLUS: you can make simple changes to their powers and domain skills by applying these changes according to what happened to that particular character in the past. Grew up as a fighter type? lessen his spell advancement to a sorceror type and grant him fighter feats. focuses on being a caster type person? take away heavy armour proficency and grant him a Divine metamagic feat. Blacksmith? remove his turn undead skill and grant him some crafting abilities. Its all up to you as a DM to make it fun for the character. Not to stand there and go 'Well, you know what? I think clerics are broken. so anyone going to play a cleric is going to have a sick-load of house rules shoved up their ass.' You think someone would play it then?

I'm sorry... I think i am going off topic for a while. this is about your changes...

A good idea is to lower the 8d roll into a 6d roll as well. that would remove the idea of a super tank from their heads.

 

[iwatt]

There true power comes from the spelllist. I'd shave it down depending on the god worshiped.

I agree. Although cumbersome, I loved the idea of 2E (or was it 1E?) spheres for clerics. Seems hell to balance the spells though. Would take some time at least. I can even see just giving a given God's cleric acces only to a subset of Domains plus a typical abjuration list (dispel, prot from..., etc..). just braisnstorming here.

I play a war cleric in one game, and it just anoys the crap out of me to have access to spells which make no sense flavor-wise, but which I'd be an idiot if I didn't use to survive against my RBDM . I try, i really do try , not to be the ultimate spellcaster, but with the wide spell selection, ther'es just too much that's easy for a cleric to do.

Anyhow, broken clerics appear only once paties are able to avoid draining the healing spells. Clerics are potentially over-powered, but in normal campaigns (with enough healing going around, more than 1 encounter per day, etc... ) thisd potential is dissipated. But if you ever see a party with acces to healing besides the cleric, these bad boys can really get out of hand.

Or the ultimate unstoppable machine: a party with four clerics:

Cleric with Strength/War/ + high strength/con + Divine Feats
Cleric with Healing/Sun + high wis/cha + Turning Feats
Cleric with Trickery/Luck + high dex/int + Skill feats
Cleric with Magic/Knowledge + high wis/int + Divine Metamagic

Basically, it all depends on context.

 

[Khayman]

I agree. Although cumbersome, I loved the idea of 2E (or was it 1E?) spheres for clerics. Seems hell to balance the spells though. Would take some time at least. I can even see just giving a given God's cleric acces only to a subset of Domains plus a typical abjuration list (dispel, prot from..., etc..). just braisnstorming here. (...)

Dark Sun did things like that. Druids & Templars had broader spell-lists but were harder to qualify for (i.e., required minimum ability scores). A bit harder to do in 3.5, but possible. Construct a 'universal' domain that all clerics gain access to. The cleric gains 1 of their god's domains at 1st, with additional domains added at higher levels.