D&D (2024) Cleric Playtest Summary

[Stalker0]

Exactly right. This is a change that's actually the most awkward for new players, who aren't aware of the ins and outs of how armor and weapon proficiencies work.

Completely agree. I would much rather just ask a new player:

DM: "Ok for this cleric your thinking of, do you want to be a more warrior type, do you want to use your holy magic a lot, or do you want to be more of a priest, scholarly guy?"

Player: "um, warrior guy".

DM: "ok, so you are going to pick this holy order. And your going to have this heavy armor, so you'll be really defensive and hard to hit."

Player: "oh cool"


The game does assume a DM for a reason, lets be honest, most new players aren;'t just making characters for a game without oversight, they have a DM to help them. When I have new players, I don't even explain their options (as frankly that is a recipe for them to lose the spirit of the game). You don't ask new players, "what do you want to build", you ask them "what kind of character do you want to play?" and then the DM walks them through a few ways to do that, and let them pick.

 

[Clint_L]

Completely agree. I would much rather just ask a new player:

DM: "Ok for this cleric your thinking of, do you want to be a more warrior type, do you want to use your holy magic a lot, or do you want to be more of a priest, scholarly guy?"

Player: "um, warrior guy".

DM: "ok, so you are going to pick this holy order. And your going to have this heavy armor, so you'll be really defensive and hard to hit."

Player: "oh cool"


The game does assume a DM for a reason, lets be honest, most new players aren;'t just making characters for a game without oversight, they have a DM to help them. When I have new players, I don't even explain their options (as frankly that is a recipe for them to lose the spirit of the game). You don't ask new players, "what do you want to build", you ask them "what kind of character do you want to play?" and then the DM walks them through a few ways to do that, and let them pick.

Yeah - this is why I like subclasses at 3. For a first character, I am just trying to get the gist of what they want, whereas if I am also leading them to a subclass it feels too much like its my character and not theirs. But keep in mind that I don't have that much time - I am frequently helping 5-6 kids at once during the last part of lunch. So that experience obviously affects my preferences.

 

[Minigiant]

My general problem with Holy Order at level 2 is the narrative consequence. We assume level 1 is the starting level. (I think most experienced groups will probably start at 3+, but we're talking about shaping the game for relative novices.)

Level 1 goes really fast! Generally, you hit level 2 before you even get your 1st long rest in, assuming a "normal" amount of encounters. You might not even make it back to town before hitting level 2, or even level 3, depending on the exact adventure structure. Let's ignore the fact that being a member of a Holy Order implies a certain background event, not something that happens while after you've killed your first couple kobolds and woodland creatures (after all, class features are easy to reskin). Taking the martial holy order then puts the character in a weird situation of gaining a "training wheels" feature they can't benefit from until they arrive back in town, and then have to sell their 1st level granted equipment and buy new stuff they may or may not be able to afford.

I think a very simple guideline for 5e is that armor proficiencies should not change on account of class features gained by leveling. One can always opt into new armor via multiclassing or feat if desired. Armor granted by class should be either none, light, or all 3. If there's a desire to keep the class from using heavy armor but medium armor is OK, just disincentivize the heavy armor via class feature, much like barbarians. Just give clerics heavy armor by default. Characters who don't want heavy armor will just prioritize Dex over Str, just like Dex fighters and paladins do already. Have the martial Holy Order give martial weapons and shield proficiencies; shields are the actual proficiency to gate if you want to keep characters from having overly high AC.

I agree

Holy Order and Channel Divinity should be swapped in order. Then Thaumaturge changed. Choosing Protector andgetting heavy armor at level 1 is fine. It's a bit off at level 2.

Crusader: Give martial weapons and Dueling Fighting style.
Hierophant: Give one bonus Arcane cantrip and one bonus Primal cantrip
Protector: Gives heavy armor training and Defense Fighting style.
Scholar: Give 2 skill proficiencies and add WIS mod to those checks
Thaumaturge: Give one bonus Divine cantrip and one bonus Divine spell prepared.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree

Holy Order and Channel Divinity should be swapped in order. Then Thaumaturge changed. Choosing Protector andgetting heavy armor at level 1 is fine. It's a bit off at level 2.

Crusader: Give martial weapons and Dueling Fighting style.
Hierophant: Give one bonus Arcane cantrip and one bonus Primal cantrip
Protector: Gives heavy armor training and Defense Fighting style.
Scholar: Give 2 skill proficiencies and add WIS mod to those checks
Thaumaturge: Give one bonus Divine cantrip and one bonus Divine spell prepared.

And maybe, as a multiclass cleric, just not give that ability.
Maybe each class having an ability you only gain when you start with that class would be a great idea.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

For Orders, I'd go with level 1 and an improvement of the order at 9th.

Protector:
1 -> gain training with martial weapons and heavy armors,
9 -> pick a Fighting Style feat

Thaumaturge:
1 -> one extra 0-level spell, Arcane Divine Recovery ala wizard/land druid
9 -> regain 1 CD on short rest.

Scholar:
1 -> Training in Int or Cha 2 skill, add Wisdom to the
9 -> Improved Ritual Casting ala Wizard (dont need to be prepped)

 

[Minigiant]

And maybe, as a multiclass cleric, just not give that ability.
Maybe each class having an ability you only gain when you start with that class would be a great idea.

Or make Holy Order First level and move only Divine Spark to 2nd.

1. Channel Divinity (Turn Undead), Holy Order, Spellcasting
2. Channel Divinity (Divine Spark)
3. Cleric Sunclass
4. Feat
5. Smite Undead
6. Cleric Subclass
7. Blessed Strikes
8. Feat
9. Holy Order Improvement
10. Divine Intervention

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The big difference in the cleric is that they've reshuffled the early levels:

• Channel Divinity is now level 1 and you get a heal (or harm) out of it as well as Turn Undead - Prof times per long rest
• New feature at 2 - the Holy Order. This is a semi- mirror of the Warlock's Pact Boon where you get to decide between heavy armour and martial weapons, an extra cantrip plus an extra channel on short rest, or two knowledge skills with quasi-expertise
• Domain at 3. It's been reshuffled a bit but the total of the Life Cleric is little different (other than they get their big healing channel divinity option at 6
• The extra d8 damage is now part of the class and automatically works on both weapons and cantrips - you get it at 7

Other than that there's reshuffling and spell changes (resistance now works like new guidance, aid gets to cover a normal sized party (6 targets), spiritual weapon is now concentration, banishment's less fun and interesting).

Overall? I'm a huge fan of the class changes. I think that every one of the changes to the class is a good one and overall little has changed. It's no longer an amazing dip, there's more variety thanks to the Holy Order, and a less overwhelming level 1.

I like it too except I think it's really wack to keep domains the way they are AND make them level 3. I'd have much preferred an approach that made domains something rather different.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Or make Holy Order First level and move only Divine Spark to 2nd.

1. Channel Divinity (Turn Undead), Holy Order, Spellcasting
2. Channel Divinity (Divine Spark)
3. Cleric Sunclass
4. Feat
5. Smite Undead
6. Cleric Subclass
7. Blessed Strikes
8. Feat
9. Holy Order Improvement
10. Divine Intervention

Ok. No problem with that.

Maybe you quoted the wrong person?

My suggestion was having an exclusive ability you only gain at character level 0.

Holy Order (at level 1) would be a perfect kind of such an ability. Why should someone who picked up a level of cleric suddenly gain all the abilities of a holy order?
I could see the same for a wizard, and a bard (school or collage) or the fighter and paladin (knightly order) or a ranger or druid (conclave) or a rogue (guild).

 

[Zaukrie]

I understand the design decision.... But I hate that channel divinity requires undead be used. I wish, and again, I understand why it isn't, that channel divinity was much more tied to your god or purpose, with like ten options.

I like most of the changes here, actually

 

[Neonchameleon]

I understand the design decision.... But I hate that channel divinity requires undead be used. I wish, and again, I understand why it isn't, that channel divinity was much more tied to your god or purpose, with like ten options.

I like most of the changes here, actually

Channel divinity doesn't require undead to be used. Turn Undead requires Undead - but you also get Divine Spark. You also get a third Channel Divinity option from your domain as your level 6 subclass feature (in the Life Cleric's case Preserve Life) so your major channel divinity option is tied to your god/purpose in the form of your domain.