cleric switching god

[mhd]

Oh, don't get the alignments into the discussion, that's a completely different subject. Having alignments mirror behavior and not the other way round isn't exactly connected to clerics changing gods -- they might as well have the same alignment, belong to the same pantheon, be brothers, who knows...

Is changing allegiances really as bad for the mental and physical health of a character as dying and being brought back to life? Isn't the continued scrutiny and/or lust for revenge of two deities enough? Why heap mechanical garbage on top of a matter that can be solved completely by role-playing?

Hmm, speaking of earlier editions, wasn't there this guy who changed from Sune to Kelemvor after being too scarred (physically and mentally) for the goddess of love? That must have been one player who seriously annyoed the DM. The rest of the party becomes gods (Mystra, Kelemvor, Cyric) and what does he get. Scars.

 

[MoonZar]

Oh, don't get the alignments into the discussion, that's a completely different subject. Having alignments mirror behavior and not the other way round isn't exactly connected to clerics changing gods -- they might as well have the same alignment, belong to the same pantheon, be brothers, who knows...

Is changing allegiances really as bad for the mental and physical health of a character as dying and being brought back to life? Isn't the continued scrutiny and/or lust for revenge of two deities enough? Why heap mechanical garbage on top of a matter that can be solved completely by role-playing?

Hmm, speaking of earlier editions, wasn't there this guy who changed from Sune to Kelemvor after being too scarred (physically and mentally) for the goddess of love? That must have been one player who seriously annyoed the DM. The rest of the party becomes gods (Mystra, Kelemvor, Cyric) and what does he get. Scars.

Personnaly i think that changing god is the same as changing alignment, you change your believe system, but again i guess this not a popular opinion...

I agree that roleplaying can solve the issue beside xp penalty if the quest is very hard. My point was that changing god is not something we do everyday and should not be taken lightly.

 

[The Souljourner]

Experience penalties and forced crappy levels are punishments for the player... and in this case it is a punishment for perfectly reasonable roleplaying. You should be encouraging stuff like this, not discouraging it! And why would you lose a level of cleric? Given that all clerics are about 90% the same, it indicates that the mental, physical, and mystical procedures are about the same. Sure, it should take *game time* to come up to speed in a new religion, but it shouldn't take extra XP. You don't give up some of your life force or knowledge when you switch gods...

As others have said... there are a host of roleplaying opportunities and plot hooks here that could easily make this role playing decision have role playing consequences. It was not a tactical decision, and therefor should not have non-roleplaying disadvantages.

And also as others have said, MoonZar, I would hate to be in a campaign with measures as harsh as that for something that seems like purely good roleplaying.

-The Souljourner

 

[MoonZar]

Experience penalties and forced crappy levels are punishments for the player... and in this case it is a punishment for perfectly reasonable roleplaying. You should be encouraging stuff like this, not discouraging it! And why would you lose a level of cleric? Given that all clerics are about 90% the same, it indicates that the mental, physical, and mystical procedures are about the same. Sure, it should take *game time* to come up to speed in a new religion, but it shouldn't take extra XP. You don't give up some of your life force or knowledge when you switch gods...

As others have said... there are a host of roleplaying opportunities and plot hooks here that could easily make this role playing decision have role playing consequences. It was not a tactical decision, and therefor should not have non-roleplaying disadvantages.

And also as others have said, MoonZar, I would hate to be in a campaign with measures as harsh as that for something that seems like purely good roleplaying.

-The Souljourner

I guess you convince me that this was very harsh and i should resolve this by good roleplay and a very hard quest to prove himself to the new order, and also retaliation from the old god and his follower.

 

[MonsterMash]

IMC it'd mean losing the cleric special abilities temporarily till they'd done some form of quest for the new god and a default hostile attitude from the followers of the original god (even if LG they aren't going to like you for it, and if they were LE or other evil aligment then it'd be likely that they'd put a price on your head).

I don't know the FR setting or dieties well enough to comment specifically.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hmm, speaking of earlier editions, wasn't there this guy who changed from Sune to Kelemvor after being too scarred (physically and mentally) for the goddess of love? That must have been one player who seriously annyoed the DM. The rest of the party becomes gods (Mystra, Kelemvor, Cyric) and what does he get. Scars.

It was Adon of Sune, later only Adon. He was a priest of Sune, posessing great physical beauty. In the Time of Troubles, he was wounded (bad hit in the face), and since divine magic worked only within one mile of your god, he couldn't heal it, and it left scars. He also felt left by his goddess, and left her service. But he didn't turn to Kelemvor, but to Mystra

Hello,

I would allow the character to change from god with the follow condition :

1) He loose instantly one level of cleric, because the two religion are so different that some of his learning is not accurate to his new idology.

So, because he changed his deity, he forgot how to fight, his reflexes, fortitude and willpower decreased, he was suddenly less hardy than before, and his general Knowledge of Religion, his ability to concentrate, to recognize spells (no matter what source), and all that becomes worse?

It makes no sense beside being arbitrary punishment.

2) He don't gain experience anymore

So he becomes a construct or undead or something? He's unable to become a better rogue, fighter, or anything else? Another ridiculous punishment.

3) We are in forgotten realm so the old church will probably retaliate against the priest as a traitor and this will probably very ugly...

He's not a traitor. He left the church because he felt betrayed. Beyond that, we're talking about Lathander. Sure, he made a bad decision when he caused the Dawn Cataclysm, but he's a nice fellow, and so are his priests. They won't retaliate, and especially won't get ugly.

4) This should not be easy to change god, mortal don't play with god, only the reverse is true... After all Tyr is Lawful, how can he accept someone who betray his god and church (latender) this why Tyr would ask big sacrifice and proof that he's fateful.

As before, he didn't betray his former deity.

Actually, I'd think that the new deity would be eager to get this mortal who becomes dissatisfied with another deity. They depend on their mortals, you know, and try to convert others to their faith all the time. I remind you of the outrages the church of Helm has committed in order to "convert infidels"

Well even good god are scary in Forgotten realms

No, not at all. They are forces of good, and cannot help to be good.

this remind me in NeverWinter an official game of Wizard that maybe you had play

First, NWN was not made by Wizards of the Coast, and second, no computer game plots are canon. As far as the Realms as described in the FRCS are concerned, the whole matter with Aribeth and Mephistopheles and all the rest never happened. It's as official as the your home campaign.

After all in 2nd edition the book suggest that someone who change alignment loose experience points.

This is a d20 Forum. We couldn't care less what AD&D had to say about it, as 2e was pitifully inferior to 3e.

Soon you'll claim that you cannot be ranger/wizard because the PHB 2e said that this is not a multiclass choice. Or that you cannot advance your elven wizard beyond level X.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

IMC it'd mean losing the cleric special abilities temporarily till they'd done some form of quest for the new god and a default hostile attitude from the followers of the original god (even if LG they aren't going to like you for it, and if they were LE or other evil aligment then it'd be likely that they'd put a price on your head).

I don't know the FR setting or dieties well enough to comment specifically.

In the Forgotten Realms, all divine magic comes from the gods. You cannot get spells from a concept, philosophy or other power, like nature. So losing divine spells and the ability to turn undead, as well as domain powers are unavoidable.

He then has to get an atonement spell cast on him from one of Tyr's priests, and they'll probably demand a quest, donation, and proof that he's sincere before they do it. After that, he'll choose two new domains and has his full divine power back.

Of course, his alignment must be compatible: No CG cleric of Tyr!

As for the old Church, there will be some ill will, but since we're talking about Lathander, this will at most be unfriendly (unless we have some mad fanatics), and often indifferent. Your average lathanderite is a good-natured, friendly perfectionist and keen on new beginnings. Some may even be friendly or even helpful, if they know him from before and value his friendship no matter what. They might try to convince him to come back, though.

 

[MoonZar]

It was Adon of Sune, later only Adon. He was a priest of Sune, posessing great physical beauty. In the Time of Troubles, he was wounded (bad hit in the face), and since divine magic worked only within one mile of your god, he couldn't heal it, and it left scars. He also felt left by his goddess, and left her service. But he didn't turn to Kelemvor, but to Mystra



So, because he changed his deity, he forgot how to fight, his reflexes, fortitude and willpower decreased, he was suddenly less hardy than before, and his general Knowledge of Religion, his ability to concentrate, to recognize spells (no matter what source), and all that becomes worse?

It makes no sense beside being arbitrary punishment.



So he becomes a construct or undead or something? He's unable to become a better rogue, fighter, or anything else? Another ridiculous punishment.



He's not a traitor. He left the church because he felt betrayed. Beyond that, we're talking about Lathander. Sure, he made a bad decision when he caused the Dawn Cataclysm, but he's a nice fellow, and so are his priests. They won't retaliate, and especially won't get ugly.



As before, he didn't betray his former deity.

Actually, I'd think that the new deity would be eager to get this mortal who becomes dissatisfied with another deity. They depend on their mortals, you know, and try to convert others to their faith all the time. I remind you of the outrages the church of Helm has committed in order to "convert infidels"



No, not at all. They are forces of good, and cannot help to be good.



First, NWN was not made by Wizards of the Coast, and second, no computer game plots are canon. As far as the Realms as described in the FRCS are concerned, the whole matter with Aribeth and Mephistopheles and all the rest never happened. It's as official as the your home campaign.



This is a d20 Forum. We couldn't care less what AD&D had to say about it, as 2e was pitifully inferior to 3e.

Soon you'll claim that you cannot be ranger/wizard because the PHB 2e said that this is not a multiclass choice. Or that you cannot advance your elven wizard beyond level X.

BTW thanks you for insulting my opinion saying this ridiculous i thought we could say idea without been hit like this.

It makes no sense beside being arbitrary punishment.

If you had read my two previous post before kicking my butt you would have see that i agree that i was wrong and this should be resolve by roleplaying.

We couldn't care less what AD&D had to say about it, as 2e was pitifully inferior to 3e.

I prefer 3nd edition and i didn't know that we couldn't speak about 2nd edition in the forum, i still thing that some of this stuff is good.

I guess you speak in the name of everybody in the forum ?! I'm sure that some people like some aspect of 2nd edition in the forum even if this not popular around here.

Soon you'll claim that you cannot be ranger/wizard because the PHB 2e said that this is not a multiclass choice. Or that you cannot advance your elven wizard beyond level X.

Don't say thing i didn't... what the point to all this ? Calm down i was just trying to say a opinion...

WoW !

 

[Methos]

2) indicate his willingness to be on probation for a while.

Is that "double secret probation"?

LOL

 

[Kae'Yoss]

BTW thanks you for insulting my opinion

Any time. Just keep up your overly hostile attitude towards players.

i thought we could say idea without been hit like this.

You can, as long as said idea isn't giving the player a really hard time for something he thinks is right, when you could talk to him first.

If you had read my two previous post before kicking my butt you would have see that i agree that i was wrong and this should be resolve by roleplaying.

While you said that this could be resolved by roleplaying, you still insist on a pretty harsh punishment:

"I agree that roleplaying can solve the issue beside xp penalty if the quest is very hard."
"I guess you convince me that this was very harsh and i should resolve this by good roleplay and a very hard quest to prove himself to the new order, and also retaliation from the old god and his follower."

So you don't punish him with rules, but instead with reactions that are blown out of proportion. Why should said quest be very hard? I don't say that it should consist of "buying some candles from the chandler living two miles from here, cause we ran out." but an unnecessarily hard quest is arbitrary punishment, too.

And thent here's the part about retaliation. We're talking about a neutral good deity here, for Vhaeraun's sake! A jovial, friendly guy, with clerics that are loved by the population for their good-naturedness.

I prefer 3nd edition and i didn't know that we couldn't speak about 2nd edition in the forum

Not in a thread about 3e rules. Making up stuff about change of faith and basing it on outdated rules on something similar, while we have current rules for both, just doesn't make sense.

I guess you speak in the name of everybody in the forum ?! I'm sure that some people like some aspect of 2nd edition.

But since this is a forum about 3rd edition, it's irrelevant. No matter how much people like 2e (my favourite aspect is that it's finally gone, btw) around here, The forum is about d20, and we use d20 rules, not AD&D rules.