Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?
- Thread starter Derren
- Start date
Khur
Sympathy for the Devil
Holy crap, this thread is big! I canno’ possibly keep up. Or can I? Here’s trying.
Jeremy_dnd, thank you for playing the game. In fact, thank all of you for that—no matter which edition you are playing.
Lizard, you make a lot of extrapolations and leaps from what I say. I can address them in brief.
Nobody said PCs are so special that nobody else (NPC) compares. Nobody said the world has only one set of hero-caliber characters. Nobody even suggested that the world has PC-detectors. It’s a shame nobody did, because what you said about all that stuff is a hoot. Maybe someone said you want PCs to be wuss losers, but it weren’t me. (How can you lose a wuss, I’d like to know?)
A hobgoblin commander does know his 1st-level-like power. It’s a simple attack with the weapon. Just like the lich’s at-will ranged attack.
If you read the upcoming FRCG, these things will become obvious. Heck, once you digest the real 4e, it’ll all be obvious. A whole bunch of monsters and NPCs are superior to PCs, even of equal level.
Most NPCs aren’t. But can you get the 5% data you need when you need it, even on the fly? Yes. And your winging it is likely to be more accurate than it was in 3e. (No, that’s not a “3e bad” jab. I enjoyed 3e, and I think it’s a good game. I think 4e is better, but I digress.) You won’t have to resort to fiat unless you want to do so.
You can’t know if we disagree as to the nature of the real world, because I’ve never stated what I personally believe about the real world.
You’re not the only one who wants history and connection. You’re not the only one who wants events going on in the background while the PCs are bumbling about. The 4e DMG certainly supports that play style, and thank goodness. If it didn't, it wouldn’t be the game for me, even as fun as World Famous Game Designer James Wyatt’s GenCon Random Dungeon is. (Try it at 4 AM, Mearls optional.)
I don’t know how we got from what was said initially to the idea of a “quantum world.” I do know that nothing in 4e prevents a changing world. The guidelines in the DMG encourage it.
And a whole lot of PCs are going to die ignominious deaths at low level, without really touching the setting in any way. Any hero-potential they had will go with them. The things PCs do still matter most, despite mechanical differences. But once a PC is, say, 15th level, that PC is special compared to most people. He has risen to great heights, to sorta quote GnomeWorks.
That said,
you can play 4e any way you like.
You won’t see a lot of wunderpriests in implied 4e story/world. You will see some. And you’ll see more in 4e campaign settings. It’s just that for every one wunderpriest, there are about 80 guys called “priests” that can’t cast divine prayer one. Those guys are great for marriages and funerals, and some of ‘em can even help you out with a few cool rituals, but they aren’t true spellcasters.
Your world can differ. I didn’t use the word “may,” because that would imply I’m giving you permission. You don’t need mine or anyone else’s to make your D&D, whatever the edition, any way you like it.
I hope you like it. If not, I hope you enjoy whatever else you choose to play.
BTW, cool movie on your shameless self-promotion. Everyone should take a look at Derren’s sig. Fun!
Now I can’t blame your stance on lack of imagination. Damn!
Final Note: I can show you how to make Jack.
Jeremy_dnd, thank you for playing the game. In fact, thank all of you for that—no matter which edition you are playing.
Lizard, you make a lot of extrapolations and leaps from what I say. I can address them in brief.
Nobody said PCs are so special that nobody else (NPC) compares. Nobody said the world has only one set of hero-caliber characters. Nobody even suggested that the world has PC-detectors. It’s a shame nobody did, because what you said about all that stuff is a hoot. Maybe someone said you want PCs to be wuss losers, but it weren’t me. (How can you lose a wuss, I’d like to know?)
A hobgoblin commander does know his 1st-level-like power. It’s a simple attack with the weapon. Just like the lich’s at-will ranged attack.
If you read the upcoming FRCG, these things will become obvious. Heck, once you digest the real 4e, it’ll all be obvious. A whole bunch of monsters and NPCs are superior to PCs, even of equal level.
Most NPCs aren’t. But can you get the 5% data you need when you need it, even on the fly? Yes. And your winging it is likely to be more accurate than it was in 3e. (No, that’s not a “3e bad” jab. I enjoyed 3e, and I think it’s a good game. I think 4e is better, but I digress.) You won’t have to resort to fiat unless you want to do so.
You can’t know if we disagree as to the nature of the real world, because I’ve never stated what I personally believe about the real world.
You’re not the only one who wants history and connection. You’re not the only one who wants events going on in the background while the PCs are bumbling about. The 4e DMG certainly supports that play style, and thank goodness. If it didn't, it wouldn’t be the game for me, even as fun as World Famous Game Designer James Wyatt’s GenCon Random Dungeon is. (Try it at 4 AM, Mearls optional.)
I don’t know how we got from what was said initially to the idea of a “quantum world.” I do know that nothing in 4e prevents a changing world. The guidelines in the DMG encourage it.
And a whole lot of PCs are going to die ignominious deaths at low level, without really touching the setting in any way. Any hero-potential they had will go with them. The things PCs do still matter most, despite mechanical differences. But once a PC is, say, 15th level, that PC is special compared to most people. He has risen to great heights, to sorta quote GnomeWorks.
The mechanics are “sensical.” They’re sensical enough for any NPC or monster to be enough like the PCs for any deviation to be largely meaningless or easily extrapolated on the fly. I’ve done it more than a few times. How does what you said here fall in line with your philosophy that rules for NPCs and PCs need to be the same? The two don’t follow, since the rules don’t need to be the same to live up to what you say here. You don’t need the same building blocks, what you really need are compatible ones. Like, you can build with all different colors of Legos.GnomeWorks said:
I would say I’m too dumb to keep up with a lot of what you said, but instead I’ll blame it on English—an imprecise language only made worse when we have to type it. And no, this isn’t some sort of insult aimed at you. Seriously, your post lost me somewhere along the way, and I can’t bring myself to believe it’s because you weren't clear. It's probably this splitting headache . . . . and my hatred for language.Kamikaze Midget said:
That said,
you can play 4e any way you like. You won’t see a lot of wunderpriests in implied 4e story/world. You will see some. And you’ll see more in 4e campaign settings. It’s just that for every one wunderpriest, there are about 80 guys called “priests” that can’t cast divine prayer one. Those guys are great for marriages and funerals, and some of ‘em can even help you out with a few cool rituals, but they aren’t true spellcasters.
Your world can differ. I didn’t use the word “may,” because that would imply I’m giving you permission. You don’t need mine or anyone else’s to make your D&D, whatever the edition, any way you like it.
I hope you like it. If not, I hope you enjoy whatever else you choose to play.
I think halflings are like chimpanzees, and I'll keep saying so until Andy Collins goes mad. All seriousness aside, small creatures can be alarmingly strong.VannATLC said:
Oops. Sorry again, Derren. 4e NPCs can have PC powers—without using the character creation rules in the PH. And 4e PCs are the New Mutants, thank you.Derren said:
BTW, cool movie on your shameless self-promotion. Everyone should take a look at Derren’s sig. Fun!
Now I can’t blame your stance on lack of imagination. Damn!
And I regret doing so. Blown out of proportion is putting it mildly. I hate you English (language). I hate you.small pumpkin man said:
This. Wait till you see Jarlaxle—or Szass Tam.med stud said:
You’re right. And the 1st-level fighter would probably lose against a few of these guards.AllisterH said:
Whatever they do, they do it with style.hong said:
Final Note: I can show you how to make Jack.
Last edited:
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I agree that this would be a problem. Though I can see there is one point where this can often lead to a problem - using Diplomacy on NPCs works, using Diplomacy on PCs... doesn't.Lizard said:
Aside from this, the only point where this problem seemed to exist was in regards to lack of Healing Surges for NPCs - now that this is out of the way, I see no real problems. The fundamental interface between PCs and NPCs seems to be the same - you've got hit points*, ability scores, skills, defenses, attacks and saves. Nothing that directly has to interact seems to lack a counterpart on the other side.
*) including healing surges, according to Khur/Chris Simms, just in case someone forgot...
Last edited:
vagabundo
Adventurer
Khur said:
THIS^^^...
I was sold on 4e, but I didn't appreciate this point until I ran the preview adventures with the pregens. Now it is so much easier to protect the king with a bunch of elite soldiers. Groups and mobs are much more powerful in 4e and it was one of the things that really really bugged me in 3e.
OT: Give us info on leveling the pregens please and a few new monsters. In my 4e game the lads are getting close to levelling up and I cannot go back to 3e.
FabioMilitoPagliara
Explorer
and in all this I cannot think they didn't put rules for
long term disease
long term poison
long term impairment
long term damage
probably more like an option for gritty campaign, but if the ritual to quickly heal a broken bone is X level highter than the ritual I can use maybe it could be also used in low level play
(btw if lava immersion -> death, maybe falling -> Fall distance/5 vs Reflex or long term damage and so on)
it's so easy to think of rules for long term conditions from what we know of the system
(e.g. make a saving throw each day/week/month untile you heal or untill you collect Y failure)
that it would be really strange if there is no rule (optional or not) for it on the DMG
long term disease
long term poison
long term impairment
long term damage
probably more like an option for gritty campaign, but if the ritual to quickly heal a broken bone is X level highter than the ritual I can use maybe it could be also used in low level play
(btw if lava immersion -> death, maybe falling -> Fall distance/5 vs Reflex or long term damage and so on)
it's so easy to think of rules for long term conditions from what we know of the system
(e.g. make a saving throw each day/week/month untile you heal or untill you collect Y failure)
that it would be really strange if there is no rule (optional or not) for it on the DMG
D.Shaffer
First Post
...It's an ability available by level 1 if you take the right class levels in 3.5. I dont see people posting about how game breaking the Totemist is, though. AKA, I dont think it's a huge issue.Lizard said:
Considering we've already been told by one of the designers (You DO realise Chris Simms is one of the designers, right?) that all NPC's have healing surges, your continued insistence that only PC's have them is quite amazing, really.Derren said:
Last edited:
Similar Threads
