Clerics & Co. are Not MAD

[Herschel]

'MAD' doesn't really kick in with a dual stat dependency, though, if you need to max 3 stats. If you only need 2, you're still OK, since you get to max two with 4e stat bumps with no great problem. Again, the Star Warlock is the poster boy, needing CHA & CON as attack stats, and INT to provide AC.

But here again, you don't need three. You're a spell-chucking, ranged attacker, not a front line fighter. AC and Reflex are nice if you have th epoints to spend but 4E characters are be-all/do-all characters any more.

 

[keterys]

That approach leaves characters generally 2 +to-hit in the hole Typical would be 4 or 5 and a +1 at 5,8,12,15,21,25,28. Due to stat increases and expertise

18 plus your bumps = +4 at level 1, +5 at 5, +6 at 11, +8 at 15, +9 at 21, +10 at 25
My version is +5 at level 1, +6 at 5, +7 at 11, +8 at 15, +9 at 21, +10 at 25

I don't see how that ends up 2 in the hole except in the single instance of a starting 20 demigod... which I hope aren't considered the baseline

 

[Nail]

AC and Reflex are nice if you have th epoints to spend but 4E characters are be-all/do-all characters any more.

I'm gonna assume you left a "NOT" out of that sentence.

 

[Herschel]

Oops, yeah insert "not" in there. A Warlock's AC is spelled d-e-f-e-n-d-e-r.

 

[DracoSuave]

Does your brother not feel the need to have reasonable str, con & dex?

One of our players has a cha heavy paladin but lacks a medium+ ranged attack & can carry little more than his standard equipment without being slowed. His base 20 cha paladin is very strong in many regards, but the above do pop up.

1) Bag of Holding. It was the solution before, and it's still the solution now.

2) While I agree a paladin will be lacking in a -capable- medium ranged attack, that's got nothing to do with the str/cha starter debate. That's a problem for any heavy-armor-based class other than a blade/flail fighter.

3) Constitution is no where near as useful as it was in 2nd or 3rd editions. An extra healing surge or two are nice, but is that extra couple points of Con worth the cost to put into it, when two surges are available instantly at the cost of a single feat?

 

[Flipguarder]

Unless of course you are an hammer-wielding earthstrength warden

Con=

higher ac
better secondary effects on attacks
more healing surges
more hammer based feats
more damage on misses (hammer rythym)

 

[keterys]

Or an infernal, star, or vestige warlock. Or a wrath invoker. Or a warding swordmage. Or a battlesmith artificer.

I do wonder if they'll have a Con-primary class again, though.

 

[Goumindong]

18 plus your bumps = +4 at level 1, +5 at 5, +6 at 11, +8 at 15, +9 at 21, +10 at 25
My version is +5 at level 1, +6 at 5, +7 at 11, +8 at 15, +9 at 21, +10 at 25

I don't see how that ends up 2 in the hole except in the single instance of a starting 20 demigod... which I hope aren't considered the baseline

Uhhh no, you're leaving bumps out

You gain a full +1 at 8[4 and 8 stat bump]
A full + at 14[11 and 14 stat bump]
A full + at 21[18 and 21 stat bump]
A full + at 28[24 and 28 stat bump]
A full + at 5[expertise boost 1]
A full + at 15[expertise boost 2]
A full + at 25[expertise boost 3]

For a total of 4+7. You are at 5+5. If the char starts out at 5 then you're 3 behind. If they take demigod on top of that you're 4 behind.

edit: had paragon and epic stat bumps in wrong spot, corrected

 

[Tony Vargas]

But here again, you don't need three. You're a spell-chucking, ranged attacker, not a front line fighter. AC and Reflex are nice if you have th epoints to spend but 4E characters are be-all/do-all characters any more.

I'm not so sure. It seems like later light-armor builds, such as the Dragon Sorcerer, get special dispensation to use something other than INT or DEX for AC. I think the warlock was just slightly botched, and the mistake isn't being repeated. With a light-armored class, you need to pull AC from somewhere, a primary or secondary stat, or you'll be too easy for far too many attacks to hit. Warlocks, indeed, had less need of AC than, say, Rogues, and got AC from INT secondary, while Rogues benefitted from DEX primary. Wizards got INT primary, but no armor - they often, IMHO, end up with more AC/REF than they really need, as people used to earlier additions happily invest a feat in Leather proficiency.

Then again, if being a ranged striker meant not much needing AC, why does the Archer Ranger make out so well in that department, with Hide proficiency and DEX primary?

 

[Nifft]

Which still somehow doesn't help those of us who actually play 9th level rather than starting in the paragon tier, since the power swap feat for daily powers has that annoying 10th-level prereq. Knowing that you're going to face a few sessions at the table with that deficit tends to encourage us to find a different character. Battle clerics share a lot of the same conceptual space as the Strengthadin, and their PP problem actually CAN be avoided at the levels of play in which it makes its appearance.

Yep. Str-Paladins are shafted worse than Str-Clerics. Thus y'all get to be in the front of the line for Divine Power boosts.

If you multi-class you're still out in the cold for one level, but that may be shorter than waiting until the splat book reaches your table.

Cheers, -- N