Clerics & Co. are Not MAD

[Garthanos]

(Conversely, Melee training upsets the balance among PH builds a little, since having a decent MBA was probably meant to be a plus for builds like the Brutal Scoundrel, and a balancing downside for others.)

It has a feat cost... and is probably one of those feats that fits the 4e theme of team work -- see Warlords granting allies basic attacks.

Wizards / Sorcerors have "better" feats that do a similar job to melee training, but which depending on how you visualize Melee Training working may be thematically better for the individual character... for instance A wizard who is improving how he moves his weapons by channelling his power through is own body and the weapons themselves has Melee training and yes runes can even glow around him and over his skin.
But sorceror seemingly conjures a weapon from thin air which snaps and pops green energy and which slices past armor as though it wasnt there he might be using Reaper's touch with his acid orb. A warlock using eldritch blasts via reapers touch also sounds pretty sweet.

 

[Garthanos]

Oops I forgot we were talking palidans and clerics.. here.. just picture a melee trained charisma paladin as guided by divine inspiration while they fight...
call the feat Divinely inspired fighter, even if it doesnt quite seem like they would need a feat to achieve that. ;-) the feat allows them to do it without thinking..

 

[Akaiku]

Exactly. I see a number of posters that are "upset" because their character can't be everything. Those days are gone. 4E is about teamwork and roles. Not every class has, can have or even needs big reflex and or AC. There are tradeoffs to be made.

The math works out to have scaling ac, one or 2 bad nad's and one or 2 good ones with a few exceptions. Thaneborn barbarians are a bit in front of the curve on nad's, as are monks. Warlocks don't scale ac, which is sad. Luckly, they just make sure they have the 13 str and con necessary to get chain and stop having pathetic ac and it works out for them. If you are cha and con, you can hopefully afford to put a 12 or 13 in str so you don't just die at ac attacks. Unless you like having that particular glass jaw, but hey, you didn't HAVE to have it. Heck, if you put 13 to start, you can qualify for plate at epic. That'd give you a chunk of ac.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

The problem isn't with classes. The problem is the way you get ability points. If they had designed a system where you gain a more even spread in ability points rather than just one stat with a +1000 then it would be okay.

If they redesigned the attribute point buy/level gain system then it would not matter if you had 3 primary scores.

It annoys me because this issue would have been obvious from the beginning of design, let alone playtesting.

 

[fuzzlewump]

The problem isn't with classes. The problem is the way you get ability points. If they had designed a system where you gain a more even spread in ability points rather than just one stat with a +1000 then it would be okay.

Could you be more specific with what "the problem" is?

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

The game is designed in such a way that if you don't want to be a lame duck you have to, at 1st level, pump everything into your main stat. If you have more than one very important stat you cannot do this effectively.

Also, almost every single character of a particular build is going to have the same primary and secondary stat pumped up to max. They all end up almost exactly the same. You might as well just have a pile of pregens and get rid of character creation altogether.

This is supported by a number of podcasts I have listened to where they have all, when generating a character for their group/AP or just to discuss a class, ended creating the exact same character without confering.

The weapon expertise feats are also evidence of how you cannot do anything other than pump 'it' up.

Another is the melee training feat that makes that primary stat responsible for basic attacks.

They may as well get rid of the separate stats and just give you one. Then that stat just goes up by a standard + dependant on level.

So basically:

1. Design the attribute point system so it is flatter/less spikey - in other words: not a couple of god like stats and a bunch of completely useless ones - instead: 6 balanced stats with mildly better/mildly worse numbers.

2. Make the need for stat bonuses less - just to hit anything and not be a pointless dead man walking. (Without resorting to bad feat injection.)

I think WOTC has tripped up on some design issues and I think they are trying to fix it with the wrong tools.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

Just thought I'd add:

There are posts and threads all addressing these points (and more that are related) in this forum in a lot more detail than I can muster.

Some kind of fix from the +1 to two stats/+1 to all stats, would be to devide the stats into a primary stat, a secondary stat and all others into tertiary stats. Then you could assign increases based on +1 to primary, +1 to secondary, +1 to tertiary, +1 to any 1/2 and +1 to all.

The exact increase method at each level I'll leave for someone else to design. Basically the aim would be to have tertiary stats keeping up better with the primary and secondary stats, but not too close so that you have a couple or more good stats that define your character better, without those stats running away into silly land. They tried to so this but failed quite badly - to the point where they made it worse.

The point assignment needs messing with at 1st level and the math of expected bonus at given level versus AC/Defences of monsters.

Personally I'd prefer it if characters started with faily average stats but got more increases with level for a more gradual increase in ability - zero to hero - more reward for levelling.

 

[Garthanos]

The game is designed in such a way that if you don't want to be a lame duck you have to, at 1st level, pump everything into your main stat. If you have more than one very important stat you cannot do this effectively.

Also, almost every single character of a particular build is going to have the same primary and secondary stat pumped up to max. They all end up almost exactly the same.

The problem being well whiffing isn't much fun... So a house rule that disconnects to hit from the primary stat. (Damage is still based on the primary.) makes alternate designs much more interesting... without much hacking on the design mechanics at all.

I came up with significant use for "off stats" basically it rewards creating the balanced "renaissance" characters without losing 4e style.

Secondary Defense (Combat Advantage modification)

"It is generally true that the hero will exploit his abilities to their maximum but when that very advantage has been taken from him, he may find his ability to adapt fails and even the greatest of armor may seem to be just so much weight holding him back".

Next to each of your defenses on your sheet write down a defense for when your adversary has combat advantage against you, it is calculated based on your secondary attribute in the associated defense category (If your intelligence is the higher reflex attribute then your secondary reflex defense will be based on Dexterity). For those in heavy armor your AC defense is now based on the better of your reflex defenses (adjusted for magic armor as normal). This replaces the normal +2 benefit of Combat Advantage.

Combat advantage occurs frequently enough for this to have some real impact on play. Im still tweaking for heavy armor, with the stat disconnect I may just make it the norm CA effect and subtract 2 to AC.

 

[Rechan]

I can tell you that the "Off" stats are useful: DEFENSES.

The character I just made uses both Wis and Cha. So his defenses, at first level, are 12/12/15.

I feel rather naked.

 

[Garthanos]

I can tell you that the "Off" stats are useful: DEFENSES.

The character I just made uses both Wis and Cha. So his defenses, at first level, are 12/12/15.

I feel rather naked.

Ouch you are naked...

There are different types of OFF stats, most of the time people get little benefit from say having a high dex and high int...with this idea well they are less vulnerable to reflex attacks delivered under combat advantage than somebody who made one of them a dump stat.

The Secondary Defense rule would give your character effective seamless Will power because both your spirit and discipline are mighty. Not much compensation when somebody is doing reflex or fortitude... those sound homogeneously bad.

Its only one thing and intended to have fairly subtle impact.... untying the primary for power reliability is umm way the extreme thing though.