Clerics & Co. are Not MAD

[FreeTheSlaves]

1) Bag of Holding. It was the solution before, and it's still the solution now.

2) While I agree a paladin will be lacking in a -capable- medium ranged attack, that's got nothing to do with the str/cha starter debate. That's a problem for any heavy-armor-based class other than a blade/flail fighter.

3) Constitution is no where near as useful as it was in 2nd or 3rd editions. An extra healing surge or two are nice, but is that extra couple points of Con worth the cost to put into it, when two surges are available instantly at the cost of a single feat?

Hmm, bag of holding only helps somewhat. Heavy armour characters are wearing up to 60lbs with armour/shields, add in 15lbs for backpack, 10+lbs for weapons. Little str chaladins are nearing weight capacity merely carrying their equipment. The personal back of holding is realistically for 4-5 lvl+ characters, before then they'll need to convince the party to let them have it. The crux of this problem is that the low str paladin (relatively speaking) is always under the spotlight whenever they wish to pick up or wear anything with significant weight.

Well, javelins are heavy thrown - the str character has a reasonable option at range 10/20. This is only relevant in that medium+ ranged missile weapon options require reasonable str/dex - which may draw ability points from the prime stats if they're elsewhere. Our 20cha/10str Paladin has a problem here - there's a melee training feat, but no missile training.

Agreed about Con, however a 12 in it comes cheap except that those point would push a 15 stat to a 16, so there's always decision here for all characters. Con's not unimportant.

 

[keterys]

Uhhh no, you're leaving bumps out

I was actually just doing your bonuses at the levels you indicated, but giving the comparisons for the levels I used - hence the jump of 2 at 15th - to show how close they were. I didn't list level 28, but I also don't _care_ about 28th as I find it unlikely I'll ever run a game at that level and if I did I'd probably give out a +7 weapon at some point anyways. 5 + 5 vs. 4 + 7 is 1 difference, and that 1 is only obtained at level 28.

Lvl   Mine   Core       
1       5       4       
2       5       4       
3       5       4
4       5       4       
5       6       5       
6       6       5       
7       6       5       
8       6       6       
9       6       6       
10      7       6       
11      7       6       
12      7       6       
13      7       6       
14      7       7       
15      8       8       
16      8       8       
17      8       8       
18      8       8       
19      8       8       
20      8       8       
21      9       9       
22      9       9       
23      9       9       
24      9       9       
25     10      10       
26     10      10       
27     10      10       
28     10      11       
29     10      11       
30     10      11

You're only behind by 1 for levels 28-30 and you're ahead by 1 for levels 1-7 and 10-13. All without spending a feat or more expensive stat costs, so you're really quite ahead of the game. I'll admit that the solution is probably not for everyone quite obviously, but I'd prefer that it not be misrepresented all the same

I also don't like the core random spike at level 14/15 now where you'll at 13th have a +2 implement and 21 stat for (5 stat + 6 level + 2 + 1 exp) = +14, get a +3 implement at 14th or 15th and have a (6 stat + 7 level + 2 or 3 enh + 1 exp) +16/+17 at 14th and (6 stat + 7 level + 3 enh + 2 exp) +18, bursting 4 points over 2 levels.

For a total of 4+7. You are at 5+5. If the char starts out at 5 then you're 3 behind. If they take demigod on top of that you're 4 behind.

(4+7) - (5+5) != 2. A character who starts out with a +5 is 1 behind for levels 8 and 9 and 14-27, then 2 behind for lvls 28-30. A demigod is behind 1 for levels 21-27, then 2 behind for lvls 28-30. Someone who is both can add 1 to those values. That said, the rule is intended to provide reasonable mechanical reasons not to have to take a 20 stat to start, so it's not surprising that in the edge corner case of a starting 20 demigod that it doesn't serve them well. Feel free to save a bucket of points and have a more well-rounded character.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Does your brother not feel the need to have reasonable str, con & dex?

One of our players has a cha heavy paladin but lacks a medium+ ranged attack & can carry little more than his standard equipment without being slowed. His base 20 cha paladin is very strong in many regards, but the above do pop up.

Well, we never pay attention to carrying capacity, mostly because it's annoying bookkeeping, but also because there's not much to grab in our adventures. But I can see that being a fair complaint in other groups.

Constitution is definitely not a must, a well placed toughness feat will take care of most of the problem of low HP. Dexterity doesn't add to AC when not wearing light armor, so I'm not sure where that comes in.

Honestly, I like the prospect of a Paladin/Feylock hybrid, and taking the Paladin armor prof. hybrid talent from Dragon 375. The paladin gains very good ranged attacks for not really giving up a whole lot. The paladin mark is pretty much unscathed. Also, get Arcane Implement Proficiency in Heavy Blades to use a blade as your implement in later levels. Or a pact hammer, sword, etc.

 

[Wepwawet]

Dexterity doesn't add to AC when wearing light armor, so I'm not sure where that comes in.

Oh yes it does
EDIT: You meant heavy armor, surely.
Anyway, you're right.
The only thing a Paladin gains from Dexterity is more Initiative.
Well.. and then there's Reflex... It's hard for a Paladin to get a good reflex save without a shield (I don't like shields, I always go for BIG weapons)
And Strength would only be used for basic attacks, but It can be replaced easily with Melee Training.

 

[Noumenon]

Skipping to the end to say I don't get this MAD acronym.

 

[Wepwawet]

Multiple Abilities Dependency.
It happens when a character build relies on several different ability scores to be effective.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In 4e, specifically, the issue is that you can 'max out' two stats, since, you get six stat bumps to two stats over the life of your character. If you try to boost 3 stats, you won't quite be keeping up on two of them.

The game's progression assumes that you max your primary attack stat - the one most/all of the powers of your class & build use to hit. You can start the stat anywhere form 16-20, and be OK, as long as you boost it at every possible opportunity. The game assumes the same INT or DEX, if your class doesn't give you heavy armor. Otherwise, your AC becomes untennable at higher levels. For Rogues or Wizards or the like, who have DEX or INT primary, that's fine - better than fine, it's pretty cool. For a Fey or Infernal Warlock, who has INT secondary, it's OK. ...

But, for a class that needs /two/ primary stats (because some of his class/build powers use one stat, some use another, and it's impossible to choose all one or the other - /and/ neither stat is INT or DEX) /and/ an AC-boosting stat, the system falls apart. He can't maintain AC, and a full selection of attack powers that all hit reasonably. He thus falls behind as he levels. MAD does not seem to be a common problem in 4e, but it's a severe one where it does occur.


It's worth noting that melee training eliminated a third, tenuous possible source of MAD. Before the Melee Training feat, you needed to keep your STR up to have a viable melee basic attack. If you were STR primary, or could afford to max STR in spite of having another primary (STR secondary, or only a pressing need for one high stat - like a Brutal Rogue, for instance), you were OK. But, if you really needed both a primary and a secondary stat boosted as much as possible, and niether of them was STR, your MBA became untennable at higher levels.

(Conversely, Melee training upsets the balance among PH builds a little, since having a decent MBA was probably meant to be a plus for builds like the Brutal Scoundrel, and a balancing downside for others.)

 

[IanB]

Oh yes it does
EDIT: You meant heavy armor, surely.
Anyway, you're right.
The only thing a Paladin gains from Dexterity is more Initiative.
Well.. and then there's Reflex... It's hard for a Paladin to get a good reflex save without a shield (I don't like shields, I always go for BIG weapons)
And Strength would only be used for basic attacks, but It can be replaced easily with Melee Training.

The various heavy blade feats all require dexterity.

 

[Flipguarder]

so.... dont use heavy blades?

 

[Herschel]

Exactly. I see a number of posters that are "upset" because their character can't be everything. Those days are gone. 4E is about teamwork and roles. Not every class has, can have or even needs big reflex and or AC. There are tradeoffs to be made.