5E Clerics Without Cantrips

Krachek

Adventurer
War domain don’t need cantrip to battle,
Rather than creating pseudo cantrip for cleric, you can remove instead all others domains.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
War domain don’t need cantrip to battle,
Rather than creating pseudo cantrip for cleric, you can remove instead all others domains.
Id rather not. War Cleric is still a Cleric. They can use Glorify, and Illuminate and Sanctify are useful for any Cleric.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay! So, other than the guidance ranting, good feedback folks!

I do think these should increase in utility at later levels, and that should be useful.

what do we think about increasing the radius of Illuminate and Rebuke at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels?

Id love to add a secondary effect to Glorify at 5th where you deal 1d6+wis radiant to enemies within 5ft of the target?

For Envelope, I would like to add at 5th that the target takes extra 1d4 radiant damage every time it is hit by a weapon attack before the start of your next turn? Then beef that damage up to 2d4 at 11, and 2d6 at 17th?

Maybe add an option somewhere where allies gain THP when they hit the target?Or maybe Illuminate gives THP to all allies?
 

Krachek

Adventurer
Id rather not. War Cleric is still a Cleric. They can use Glorify, and Illuminate and Sanctify are useful for any Cleric.
What I see when I take a closer look, is at will abilities more complex, versatile, and useful than actual cleric’s cantrip. You make one ability to implement 5 cantrips at once. Using the « ability« term is just a fluff for cantrip.
Do you think Cleric need more potent cantrips?
 
I find it strange that a cleric dedicated to the TRUE PATRON OF DARKNESS ABOVE can produce light and a cleric who worships the UNBRIDLED LORD OF THE CORONA VIRUS can curse disease.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker
I find it strange that a cleric dedicated to the TRUE PATRON OF DARKNESS ABOVE can produce light and a cleric who worships the UNBRIDLED LORD OF THE CORONA VIRUS can curse disease.
Eh. "O Great Darkness, spare this space your deepest attentions, for a short while." "Sickener of Nations, move this illness from this person to some other person I do not know or care about." Prayer works, ya know.
 
Eh. "O Great Darkness, spare this space your deepest attentions, for a short while." "Sickener of Nations, move this illness from this person to some other person I do not know or care about." Prayer works, ya know.
I your idea of gods is different than mine. In my game, Syla, goddess of fire, wants to cover the entire world (including her followers) in flame. She thinks flames are beautiful and everything else is hideous and unbearable. She would never, under any circumstance, quench a fire. Likewise, my god of life, Arasara, cannot endure death and would save even her greatest enemy, even one who had raped her children in front of her. She is the force of life itself. Allowing any living creature to die is an enigma to her. Thus she cannot allow her clerics to kill, even to save the lives of others.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker
I your idea of gods is different than mine. In my game, Syla, goddess of fire, wants to cover the entire world (including her followers) in flame. She thinks flames are beautiful and everything else is hideous and unbearable. She would never, under any circumstance, quench a fire. Likewise, my god of life, Arasara, cannot endure death and would save even her greatest enemy, even one who had raped her children in front of her. She is the force of life itself. Allowing any living creature to die is an enigma to her. Thus she cannot allow her clerics to kill, even to save the lives of others.
My understanding of gods is that they need to be worshiped to have power (at least, that's the way I've done it, every time I've had a setting with gods), and I'm not sure beings so implacable as you're describing would be worshiped. Beings that need to be worshiped are ... more responsive to the needs/desires of their worshipers.

To be clear, that doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. My current setting doesn't have gods, so I haven't put as much thought into them recently.
 
My understanding of gods is that they need to be worshiped to have power (at least, that's the way I've done it, every time I've had a setting with gods), and I'm not sure beings so implacable as you're describing would be worshiped. Beings that need to be worshiped are ... more responsive to the needs/desires of their worshipers.

To be clear, that doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. My current setting doesn't have gods, so I haven't put as much thought into them recently.
In my game, I've defined "God" as conscious but fundamental force of the cosmos. Very few care about their followers, and those who do "tend their flock," do so a very inhuman way. Thus, the gods are feared more than they are worshiped. Syla views her followers the way a smoker views a cigarette lighter. When they stop lighting fires, she deposes of them. No one worships Syla to prevent forest fires. They worship her to watch the world burn, burn, burn.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker
In my game, I've defined "God" as conscious but fundamental force of the cosmos. Very few care about their followers, and those who do "tend their flock," do so a very inhuman way. Thus, the gods are feared more than they are worshiped. Syla views her followers the way a smoker views a cigarette lighter. When they stop lighting fires, she deposes of them. No one worships Syla to prevent forest fires. They worship her to watch the world burn, burn, burn.
From how you described them before, that seemed likely to be the case.
 

Krachek

Adventurer
I find it strange that a cleric dedicated to the TRUE PATRON OF DARKNESS ABOVE can produce light and a cleric who worships the UNBRIDLED LORD OF THE CORONA VIRUS can curse disease.
It’s a design problem. 9 alignments and a dozen of domains share the same core class and spell list.
The solution is not easy, do we want a dozen of different classes to implement the cleric. Note that paladin, sorcerer, and even warlock share some parts of this problem.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I find it strange that a cleric dedicated to the TRUE PATRON OF DARKNESS ABOVE can produce light and a cleric who worships the UNBRIDLED LORD OF THE CORONA VIRUS can curse disease.
No more strange than the fact that a cleric of vecna has turn undead.

if there is an incongruity, just go back to cantrips. 🤷‍♂️
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
My beef is that guidance breaks my immersion in the game.

Tension is high. The orcs are closing in and the rogue nervously looks at the locked temple portal, knowing one wrong move triggers the arcane rune and spells doom. He pulls out his lucky pick, gives it a kiss....and then the cleric interrupts..."wait, wait, before you do that...you need some sweet, loving, guidance." The cleric then gives the rogue an encouraging pat on the ass, says "go team," and steps back into the shadows, lurking until their chance to charge in and give someone some good ole fashioned guidance comes up.
Tension is high. The orcs are closing in and the rogue nervously looks at the locked temple portal, knowing one wrong move triggers the arcane rune and spells doom. He pulls out his lucky pick, gives it a kiss as the priest mummers a prayer to his god to let this work, kissing his holy symbol in a mirroring gesture.

This all seems perfectly in narrative. Before you have a half-narrative, half players interacting with mechanics. So you have the above for narrative, or the below for players/mechanics.

Rogue's player: I'm going to have Brandar try to pick the lock.
Cleric's player: Hrothgar will cast Guidance on Brandar to help.

Either context is fine. Mixing them to make it intentionally jarring and using that as proof it's jarring doesn't swing it. The top example seems fine for immersion.
 

Ambush

Explorer
We've gotten pretty far off topic here though. As far as a discussion of the original point of this post:

To me, they're simply new cantrips, given that I feel a cantrip is a simple magical ability that can be done at will. Ultimately, if scalable, damaging cantrips are removed from your game, I think that you'll find that either a) classes designed around these abilities are underpowered or b) the players will find a way to do the same thing in a way that feels less wizard-y/cleric-y/druid-y/etc.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
We've gotten pretty far off topic here though. As far as a discussion of the original point of this post:

To me, they're simply new cantrips, given that I feel a cantrip is a simple magical ability that can be done at will. Ultimately, if scalable, damaging cantrips are removed from your game, I think that you'll find that either a) classes designed around these abilities are underpowered or b) the players will find a way to do the same thing in a way that feels less wizard-y/cleric-y/druid-y/etc.
I don’t actually mind if they’re “basically cantrips” for some people. They are unified in theme, they’re a feature that subclasses can hang new abilities on, and they fit with things cleric’s get later on. There are more choices within Divine Beacon because the player doesn’t get to choose from a broad list.

And they “scale” in that I’ll be adding features at 5th, 11th, etc, that increase damage in thematic ways whenever the cleric makes an attack or forces a save without spending a spell slot, and expanding these abilities in ways that are less “samey” than adding damage dice.
This way, a melee cleric can always use Glorify and be effective as a warrior, a Light Cleric can focus on using Illuminate (which gets bigger and adds an ally buff) and Envelope (which gains a party buff), etc, but all clerics deal in Divine Power, which is Radiance.
 

Iry

Adventurer
And yet, clerics have no trouble using it every round, for every action, on every occasion, over and over and over again. It drives me crazy.
I have a newer player and while I don't think she acts maliciously, EVERY time the party is going to do something, Guidance comes up.
The social consequences of that tend to be pretty high. Obvious chanting and hand waving can draw the wrong kind of attention, especially in a tense or stealthy situation.
 

Ambush

Explorer
I don’t actually mind if they’re “basically cantrips” for some people. They are unified in theme, they’re a feature that subclasses can hang new abilities on, and they fit with things cleric’s get later on. There are more choices within Divine Beacon because the player doesn’t get to choose from a broad list.
I guess the only reason that I brought it up was the title of the thread :) But in general, I'd love to see more spells/abilities, so that multiple classes don't all feel so similar.

And they “scale” in that I’ll be adding features at 5th, 11th, etc, that increase damage in thematic ways whenever the cleric makes an attack or forces a save without spending a spell slot, and expanding these abilities in ways that are less “samey” than adding damage dice.
This way, a melee cleric can always use Glorify and be effective as a warrior, a Light Cleric can focus on using Illuminate (which gets bigger and adds an ally buff) and Envelope (which gains a party buff), etc, but all clerics deal in Divine Power, which is Radiance.
As far as usability goes, I'd likely either dip cleric or take Magic Aptitude as a fighter to get Glorify. Because bonus action getting an additional die of dmg on every single attack with a weapon is going to get abused very fast. If you make the spell an action, and grant a single melee attack as a part of it, you can curb that.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I guess the only reason that I brought it up was the title of the thread :) But in general, I'd love to see more spells/abilities, so that multiple classes don't all feel so similar.


As far as usability goes, I'd likely either dip cleric or take Magic Aptitude as a fighter to get Glorify. Because bonus action getting an additional die of dmg on every single attack with a weapon is going to get abused very fast. If you make the spell an action, and grant a single melee attack as a part of it, you can curb that.
Magical Adept won’t get someone Glorify, because it isn’t a cantrip. Dipping isn’t a bad point, though. I’ll review it.
 

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