Clerics without gods = huh?!

[ConcreteBuddha]

Druids. Paladins. Rangers. These do not require the assistance of a god to gain their spells. Why should a cleric?

Honestly, the base PHB is supposed to be versatile. If philosophical clerics who worship ideas does not fit your specific campaign world, then fine. That doesn't mean that the PHB needs to be altered for everyone else. There is an example of a world where all divine casters need patrons. It's called Forgotten Realms.

But not all campaigns need to work like this. I would be annoyed, to say the least, if that were the case. Honestly, I like godless clerics. I like it because it is different from the typical gods who are made in Man's image. I have an idea for a campaign world that does not have one single pantheon, nor do gods grant powers. Instead, all divinity flows from belief, and "gods" are Epic level NPCs. (Planescape has tainted me. *grin*)

 

[Psion]

Druids. Paladins. Rangers. These do not require the assistance of a god to gain their spells.

Do too.

 

[Alzrius]

There was a related question in the Sage Advice of Dragon 300. A person asked how a paladin of Helm (an FR god) could receive paladin spells when Helm himself had no paladin levels (since Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons say a god must have levels in Ranger, Druid, or Paladin to grant spells to those classes). The Sage's advice was that the spells just come from another source, the source being whatever the Dm wanted.

This pretty much summed up my opinion of where clerics with no gods got their spells. They were channeling power from some other external source. It may be a force (like the sun or such), or maybe a philosophy (though Im not sure how they could provide external power), but its something external. Clerics are meant to use power from something beyond themselves. Perhaps they can gain low-level spells from faith alone (in 2E it was 1st and 2nd-level spells, in 3E I'd personally say 0 and 1st-level spells), but anything more requires outside help. Greater internal power, imho, should be represented by psionic characters and maybe sorcerers.

Just my take on it.

 

[Rackhir]

In the old Thieves World books, there were many gods, but they tended to be aspects of primal templates. For example there would be individual gods of storms in each pantheon, who's fortunes rise and fall, but they are in a sense only shadows or aspects of a primal god/force, that exists independently of the individual gods.

For example, Tempus was tied to the Rankan storm god, but when the Rankan storm god was destroyed, he still could derive his power from the primal storm god even though he was not a god in the conventional sense of responding to and needing worshipers. In a sense they draw their power from all the gods and worshipers who might embody or follow that aspect.

A similar concept could be associated with the the various domains, though it might make more sense to limit "godless" clerics to one domain in that case.

 

[Aaron L]

If people can learn arcane magic, why not divine magic as a discipline? I like the idea of "white wizards" and healing adepts that do not have to worship a god, or simply people who harness another source of power for spells. Who says a cleric has to worship something to recieve his spells? Who do gods with cleric levels worship? No one, they have just learned to wield divine magic, the same way one would learn to wield arcane magic. I actually don't like the idea that divine magic is somehow drained down from your god.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

The question is flawed.

The question its self creates the problem. The question might better be stated thusly:

If a Cleric does not believe in the existance of any divine force, where does he get his power?

The answer to that question, is such a person is then not really a cleric, and gets no spells.

When a cleric is not devoted to a specific god, you can consider him to be a servant of any all gods whom his philosopy agress with. In such a situation, I doubt that the cleric insists that the gods to not exist at all.

The question you pose is similar to confusing an Atheist (Does not belive in the existance of God or any Divine agent) and an Agnostic (Does not know or have an opinion one way or the other).

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Gunslinger]

I view the distinction between arcane and divine casters in much the same ways as Psion. Wizards, sorcerors, Bards, and Psions all draw their power from themselves, while Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins draw their spellcasting powers from the deities they worship.

And since when has a god had to have been able to cast a certain spell to grant his followers the ability to cast it?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Kor, this is an anathema to me!

But a good one.

I *love* godless clerics...mostly because I enjoy the idea that the gods are more thoughts than actual beings.

Think about it. The idea came first. Gods were formed from the concept. All the deities are are physical representations of the force, the power, the might of belief.

Who needs a frickin' channel for that? Cut out the middle man. Go over the gods' heads. Worship where *they* draw power from. If they draw power from belief, you can to. If they draw power from people worshiping them, you can draw power from the thousands of people who worship what they represent.

Think of the mythography -- why does a god grant the Strength or Celerity domains? Because he represents, to an extent, the Strength and Speed that his worshipers value. Gods grow out of beliefs...

You don't need a figurehead to believe in a force greater than yourself...even if that force is the principles of physical prowess or speed...

It does largely depend on the campaign....there's nothing wrong with having a gods-only-grant-spells universe....but I (personally) prefer mugh more ambiguity.

Oh, and to be a wee lil' nitpicker:

Originally Posted by Psion
Those who draw their powers without the benefit of some sort of divinity are, AFAIAC, arcane spellcasters by definition.

....er.....dude....*points at your nickname*.....psst! Psionics, man!

 

[WayneLigon]

And since when has a god had to have been able to cast a certain spell to grant his followers the ability to cast it?

Apparently, since D&D and F&P say so. Personally I'd disagree with the answer; a more likely one is 'Hell, we forgot about that stupid rule when we did the write-up'.

 

[Psion]

Who needs a frickin' channel for that? Cut out the middle man.

Doesn't cut it, IMV. If its just you, it's not divine. It has to be a collective, a distillation, of the follower's beleifs. Just your beleifs by themselves don't cut it. It's like a steam engine... you need a heat source and a heat sink to complete the cycle.

....er.....dude....*points at your nickname*.....psst! Psionics, man!

Gee, I was going under the assumption that not all people within view of my writing would be using psionics... just as it's not safe to assume that they will be using a concept like "godless priests."