Cloak of Invisibility: Best item in the game?

[Jhulae]

The rogue using Hide from the Light can only use basic attacks (hah) or at will attacks (hah). He won't do enough damage per round to kill Orcus before his invisibility wears off.

And, if she's using her 'Hide in Plain Sight' which doesn't allow her to move, but still makes her completely undetectable at level 30 with her screaming stealth bonuses (which means no triangulation as per your statements - because nobody knows where the ranged attacker is shooting from...), the only difference becomes movement.

And, also.. you say in a blanket statement this is the most powerful magic item in the game. But clearly it's *only* so for very specific classes - those with a high stealth bonus. For anyone else, how is this the most powerful item in the game?

 

[Zurai]

And, if she's using her 'Hide in Plain Sight' which doesn't allow her to move, but still makes her completely undetectable at level 30 with her screaming stealth bonuses (which means no triangulation as per your statements - because nobody knows where the ranged attacker is shooting from...), the only difference becomes movement.

And, also.. you say in a blanket statement this is the most powerful magic item in the game. But clearly it's *only* so for very specific classes - those with a high stealth bonus. For anyone else, how is this the most powerful item in the game?

Here, I'll spell it out for you in little baby words:

Cloak of Invisibility is invisibility THAT HAS NO RESTRICTIONS. Nothing can drop you from the invisibility against 90% of the monsters in the MM except the passage of time. It is impossible for them to pinpoint your position, so they cannot effectively use either of the two "end clauses" on the invisibility. Every other invisibility effect in the game has an effective "end clause": attacking, moving, moving more than 2 squares, attacking with a non-at-will power, or at the start/end of your next turn.

Cloak of Invisibility is unique in that it defeats its own end clauses. It gives you effective immunity to the two things that could cause it to stop working.

EDIT: And please stop lying about what I've said. I never once stated "The Cloak of Invisibility is the best item in the game". I never stated or presented it as fact. The thread title asks a question. I answered the question at the end of my original post "I think so". I never once "said in a blanket statement that this is the most powerful magic item in the game". Please don't lie about what I've said.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Wouldn't the direction the arrows are coming from give a pretty good idea where the invisible ranger is?

Yes, as determined by the stealth check that you must make. If you wish to attack and remain hidden you must make a stealth attack. If you succeed then you are hidden from the target and you have combat advantage against that target. If you fail then you are not hidden from the target and you dont have combat advantage. In addition, if you fail while invisible (or fail while having superior cover, same difference) the target knows which direction you are in as well a a general distance. If you fail your stealth check by 10 or more, then the target knows exactly where you are.

EDIT: Except for the fact that you retain CA against an enemy that cant see you.

 

[Jhulae]

Here, I'll spell it out for you in little baby words:

Cloak of Invisibility is invisibility THAT HAS NO RESTRICTIONS. Nothing can drop you from the invisibility against 90% of the monsters in the MM except the passage of time. It is impossible for them to pinpoint your position, so they cannot effectively use either of the two "end clauses" on the invisibility. Every other invisibility effect in the game has an effective "end clause": attacking, moving, moving more than 2 squares, attacking with a non-at-will power, or at the start/end of your next turn.

Cloak of Invisibility is unique in that it defeats its own end clauses. It gives you effective immunity to the two things that could cause it to stop working.

EDIT: And please stop lying about what I've said. I never once stated "The Cloak of Invisibility is the best item in the game". I never stated or presented it as fact. The thread title asks a question. I answered the question at the end of my original post "I think so". I never once "said in a blanket statement that this is the most powerful magic item in the game". Please don't lie about what I've said.

Fair enough. I did forget your original post had a ? beside it. But you've also been 'challenging' everyone to prove you wrong as well as anyone who disagrees with you, making your "I think so" at the end of your original post more like an "It is".

But again, *you* haven't answered how this item is so fantabulous for anybody *without* a screaming high stealth bonus. I'll give you that it's a great item for Rogues and Rangers.

But, being hit via Melee or Ranged *ends* the cloak's invisibility. So how's the cloak an awesome item for Fighters? Clerics? Wizards?

 

[Zurai]

But again, *you* haven't answered how this item is so fantabulous for anybody *without* a screaming high stealth bonus.

Yes, I have. Any character in the game can give up two of their many, many feats (which everyone has been complaining they can't find enough uses for anyway) to get +23 Stealth without even a positive Dexterity score. +23 is enough to reliably pull the wool over the eyes of just about any creature except Orcus.

I've already said that before in the thread. Multiple times, in fact. +20 Stealth is just skill training and level bonus. That's it. +20 Perception is very nearly the highest of any monster in the entire MM. Toss anything extra on top of Skill Training and you can do pretty much whatever you want with the vast majority of the MM. A +29 is as simple as skill training, skill focus, and a +6 item bonus (and there are several ways to get that), and that even beats Orcus's perception!

 

[Bront]

Yes, I have. Any character in the game can give up two of their many, many feats (which everyone has been complaining they can't find enough uses for anyway) to get +23 Stealth without even a positive Dexterity score. +23 is enough to reliably pull the wool over the eyes of just about any creature except Orcus.

I've already said that before in the thread. Multiple times, in fact. +20 Stealth is just skill training and level bonus. That's it. +20 Perception is very nearly the highest of any monster in the entire MM. Toss anything extra on top of Skill Training and you can do pretty much whatever you want with the vast majority of the MM. A +29 is as simple as skill training, skill focus, and a +6 item bonus (and there are several ways to get that), and that even beats Orcus's perception!

That still specifically requires 2 feats in order to maximize the potential of the item. Also, such characters wouldn't be able to move far without making themselves potentially much easier to spot.

Also, you are taking the planing of the GM out of the equation. Invisi-ranger is a one trick pony, and it's not likely a GM would simply let something like that go encountered for any important encounter.

In the Orcus example, why doesn't Orcus simply run, eventually forcing Invisi-Ranger to run, till he locates Invisi-ranger due to his running, which allows him to blast the area he's in? Wash, rinse, repeat, and the ranger runs out of HP or invisibility before Orcus is dead.

In a vacuum, where foes square off till they're dead, it may look superior, but that's not what actually happens during the course of play.

Besides that, you're saying that said item is the best item in the game for a character designed to use it. I'm sure there are other items that are equality powerful in the hands of a character specifically designed to use it.

 

[Zurai]

Invisi-ranger is a one trick pony

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Remove the cloak and Invisi-Ranger is still an absolutely 100% viable character.

You've also - again - not addressed the actual point of my post, instead focusing on the intentionally hyperbolic Orcus example.

Orcus does not matter.

Compare the Cloak to any other item of its slot. It is clearly superior, even though it is priced as a middle of the road item.

 

[TimeOut]

My only problem with these types of "exercises" is that they are so damn subjective. In a real game, this just wouldn't be a problem.

Thank you for the victory of common sense.

 

[Zurai]

I'm getting a headache from it, so from this point on:

Orcus is no longer a part of this thread. Orcus does not matter. Orcus was a sidenote that grew out of hand, and even though it did a perfectly fine job of proving my point about the item, people insist on making the thread about Orcus instead of discussing the item itself.

I will no longer respond to Orcus. Orcus is dead to me. Dead!

I will only discuss the Cloak of Invisibility in this thread.

By the way, I'm still waiting for someone claiming the Cloak of Invisibility isn't all that to compare it to the Cloak of Invulnerability.

 

[skullking]

Second Wind is only available to Player Characters unless otherwise noted in the monster/NPC statblock (p291, PHB). Orcus does not have such a notation.

Well I don't have the books yet thanks to Amazon.co.uk

But then again if they allow a level 33 solo to be killed by a single level 30 character due to a single item the rules are probably not woth buying.