Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Arbitrary]

But it doesn't work because the thing in the Effect column is never, and would never, be in that column.

That particular argument is really just disguised nonsense. Something crazy was put in the third row that seemed acceptable but actually isn't.

 

[KarinsDad]

He's not relying on that paragraph for his argument; he's relying on the note on the hit points line in any given minion's stat block:

"HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion."

So there are two rules:
1. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.
2. A missed attack never damages a minion.

1 does not apply to Cloud of Daggers, because Cloud of Daggers is not an attack that normally deals damage on a miss.

Actually, they really are the same rule Hyp and neither #1 nor #2 apply to Cloud of Daggers.

The first is from both the DMG and MM. The second is the Reader's Digest Condensed version of the same rule in the creature descriptions in the MM.

The one liners in the creature descriptions do not trump the entire Minon sections in both the DMG and the MM. They are just there to remind the DM that damage on a Miss does not damage a minion. No more, no less.

One can opine that they are different rules, but the one in the Minion creature writeups really is just a reminder of the real rule. Stating that these are separate rules where the one liner Minion sentence trumps the entire Minion rules section is like stating that a table entry on a feat trumps the entire feat descriptive paragraph.

Err, no.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, they really are the same rule Hyp...

If you read to the end of my post, I said the same thing.

I was reconstructing SadisticFishing's processes, which differentiated the two, and later showed they were in fact the same.

-Hyp.

 

[Arbitrary]

DMG, pg 55 - Minion

A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn't require an attack roll (such as the paladin's divine challenge or the fighter's cleave) destroys a minion. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage

There. That's when a minion doesn't take damage. That's it. Everything else? Right to the dome. "A missed attack never damages a minion" is reminder text. Period.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

I think we've begun to argue with ourselves.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Your arguments have as much merit as mine - no more though. We are both reading the same rules, but I consider the "reminder" text in the Minion box as a rule, whereas you read it as a reminder of a rule. That is the only difference between our opinions.

I humbly retire, thank you Hyp. I'm probably going to play it my way, I'll run it past my group.

 

[Arbitrary]

Expanding what the keyword Miss means is an error. It has a specific mechanical function and what has happened is that additional definitions of the word beyond the scope of the keyword have caused a strange interaction. Interpretations of the word "never" are also send things awry.

What a word means in the system is what matters.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Expanding what the keyword Miss means is an error. It has a specific mechanical function and what has happened is that additional definitions of the word beyond the scope of the keyword have caused a strange interaction.

I wasn't expanding the meaning of "miss", I was using the definition of "Missed attack."

Is a missed Cleave not a missed attack?

 

[Saeviomagy]

I humbly retire, thank you Hyp. I'm probably going to play it my way, I'll run it past my group.

Remember to tell your party members to never aim at a minion with cloud of daggers then. They should always aim at his square to avoid the chance that they'll miss him.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Your arguments have as much merit as mine - no more though. We are both reading the same rules, but I consider the "reminder" text in the Minion box as a rule, whereas you read it as a reminder of a rule. That is the only difference between our opinions.

I humbly retire, thank you Hyp. I'm probably going to play it my way, I'll run it past my group.

So you are still of the opinion that the full minion rules on page 55 of the DMG are never intended to be used?