Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Caliban]

This is not a troll post.

The reason I post this is mostly because people misunderstand what a "minion" is. 1 damage does not kill a minion, and that is why Missed effects never damage a minion.

So why would this kill one? It's even LESS damage than a missed attack.

RAW and RAI, I'm absolutely sure that I'm right.

I don't think you are troll, but I don't think we are the ones who are misunderstanding it. A missed attack is just part of a power, it does not make everything about the power an attack.

Being absolutely sure just means that you don't listen to things that disagree with you, it doesn't mean you are right.

 

[ryryguy]

The Cloud of Knives is an attack. If it misses, it is a missed attack. If it is a missed attack, the "Effect" entry is "damage from a missed attack", as it is Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack. Minions are immune to damage from missed attacks. Hence, minions are immune to the Effect of a missed Cloud of Knives.

It's simple logic, reading it exactly as it's worded.

"The Cloud of Knives is an attack. If it misses, it is a missed attack."

"Missed attack" is not a clearly defined game term. "Attack" is a defined term; attacks can hit or miss. Attacks can deal damage. "Effect" is a defined term; conjurations and zones (such as the one created by Cloud of Knives) are examples of power effects. Effects can deal damage. "Power" is a defined term; a power can include one or more attacks, and one or more effects. For a power that has both an attack and an effect, the effect could be created if the attack hits, if the attack misses, or without reference to the power's attack. Utility powers are examples of powers that create effects without reference to the power's attack (there is no attack). Cloud of Knives is also a power that creates an effect without reference to the power's attack.

Imagine that Cloud of Knives is a utility power - delete its Target, Attack, and Hit lines, leaving only its Effect line. Could this power damage a minion? I think you'd say yes. Now, imagine a power that instead deletes the Effect line leaving only the Attack related stuff. Would this power kill a minion on a miss? Everyone would agree that it would not. What people are saying is that the actual Cloud of Knives is like these two imagined powers rolled into one. Each of the two powers has its own rules about how it works in relation to a minion.

[D]![/D]
SadisticFishing, it seems pretty clear that no one is going to convince you to change your mind - I won't try again after this post. I'd just like to point out that out of the dozen-plus people who have posted to this thread, you are the only one who holds the position you do. Customer service also subscribes to the other position.

While those facts do not absolutely establish that you are wrong and they are right, they do suggest that you might want to rethink your postion and make an extra effort to understand what everyone is trying to tell you here.

 

[Mouseferatu]

RAW and RAI, I'm absolutely sure that I'm right.

As someone who has worked on the game and talked about the rules with people at WotC, I'm absolutely sure that you're wrong.

The "effect" line is 100%, totally separate from the "attack," "hit," and "miss" lines. If an attack deals damage "on a miss," that's under the "miss" line.

The "effect" line is something that happens regardless, and is not affected in any way by whether the attack hits or misses.

4E has a very specific definition for "attack" when used in a mechanical rules sense. It refers to the attack roll and the repurcusions thereof. By the rules, cloud of daggers includes an attack, but it is not, in and of itself, the attack being referred to in the rules.

Cloud of daggers kills minions who start their turn in its area.

 

[SadisticFishing]

"
"Missed attack" is not a clearly defined game term.QUOTE]

No, but it's quite logical to assume that an attack that misses is a missed attack.

Imagine that Cloud of Knives is a utility power

If it were a utility power, then it would not be a missed attack.

As is... A missed Cloud of Knives is a missed attack. The effect is part of Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack. A missed attack never damages a minion.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

No, but it's quite logical to assume that an attack that misses is a missed attack.



If it were a utility power, then it would not be a missed attack.

As is... A missed Cloud of Knives is a missed attack. The effect is part of Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack. A missed attack never damages a minion.

Then explain how Cloudkill, which after the errata is formatted exactly like Cloud of Knives, can kill every single living creature not immune to it, but will leave minions unharmed. Do you really think thats how it works by RAW or RAI? If so explain the logic.

 

[IanB]

"
"Missed attack" is not a clearly defined game term.QUOTE]

No, but it's quite logical to assume that an attack that misses is a missed attack.



If it were a utility power, then it would not be a missed attack.

As is... A missed Cloud of Knives is a missed attack. The effect is part of Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack. A missed attack never damages a minion.

So you're saying that if the attack hits the initial target, and a minion later walks into the cloud effect, it dies, but if the attack misses the initial target, and a minion later walks into the cloud effect, nothing happens?

Um, sure.

 

[Caliban]

No, but it's quite logical to assume that an attack that misses is a missed attack.

This much is true. However, you are assuming that if a power includes an attack that the entire power and any related effects are an attack.

That is not a logical conclusion based on the context in which it is used in the rules. An attack is just one potential aspect of a power.

 

[silentounce]

It is an Attack Power. Hence, it is an attack. Are you saying that the attack powers that don't have an attack (Wall of Fire) are not attacks? Of course they are.

Actually, they aren't. This came up with that Cleric power Seal of Binding. It does not protect from things like Wall of Fire. I don't have search so I can't find the post on here for you. For something to be considered an attack, it requires an attack roll, according to WotC. So, Wall of Fire, is not an attack according to the rules. Yes, this is despite the fact that it is called a Wizard Attack power.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Oooh, ooh, I've got another stupid result!

Posted: 12:48 a.m. by Goku1440 I found an awesome loophole! On page 242 it says "Add oregano to taste!" It doesn't say how much oregano, or what sort of taste! You can add as much oregano as you want! I'm going to make my friends eat infinite oregano and they'll have to do it because the recipe says so!

Oh, wait, wrong one.

I meant the fact that under SadisticFishing's rule:

If I miss with any attack roll I make on a power that creates a zone, all minions become immune to the zones damage.

After all, it's a power that missed, right?

Or maybe it's determined on the attack roll that I made last?

 

[Thasmodious]

It's simple logic, reading it exactly as it's worded.

There's a big difference between "simple logic" and the "logic of simpletons".