Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[GoLu]

edit: that was unnecessarily snarky on my part.

 

[SadisticFishing]

But one says that "Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion." Effects don't require attack rolls ; as in, you can use them without making any attack roll. This contradicts your interpretation of the "missed attack never damages a minion."

WHAT!? Where does it say this? If that's an exact quote, that SHATTERS my argument. Actually, not as bad as I first though, as it's still talking about Utility and odd powers, not Attacks. Which does in fact change the way the rules interact. Still, if you can give me a page, that's pretty damn strong evidence against my case.

Otherwise, you're all still misinterpreting what I'm saying, mostly.

As for Stinking Cloud, THE MINION WILL NOT ENTER THE STINKING CLOUD. The rules allow for some silly things, the DM has to abjucate. But, yes, that is INDEED how it should work.

Unless that is a direct quote.

EDIT: Actually, that being a quote changes nothing. I take it back, that doesn't change anything. Cloud of Knives requires an attack roll, if you're targetting a minion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But one says that "Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion." Effects don't require attack rolls ; as in, you can use them without making any attack roll. This contradicts your interpretation of the "missed attack never damages a minion."

You're considering Cloud of Daggers to contain an attack (a source of damage that requires an attack roll), and an effect (a source of damage that doesn't require an attack roll).

SadisticFishing considers Cloud of Daggers to be a source of damage that requires an attack roll, some of which applies on a hit, and some of which applies to creatures in the area.

Since, under his reading, the source of damage is the power, not the effect, both the "Hit" and the "Effect" are both consequences of Cloud of Daggers, a source of damage which requires an attack roll. The Effect, taken in isolation, might not require an attack roll, but the power does.

Once you decide that "Cloud of Daggers" is an attack, SadisticFishing's argument parses. It leads to bizarre and non-intuitive results, like Arbitrary's Stinking Cloud example, but once we accept Cloud of Daggers as 'an attack', bizarre and non-intuitive doesn't make it wrong.

That's the crucial error. If SadisticFishing can be convinced that Cloud of Daggers is not 'an attack', but rather that Cloud of Daggers is a power that incorporates both an attack and an effect as discrete entities, everything else falls into place. But until he can be convinced of that one piece of the puzzle, everything else in his argument follows logically from the original incorrect assumption.

-Hyp.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Cloud of Knives is an At-Will attack. That makes it an attack, I think. Yay words, this is complicated >_<

Thank you HyperSmurf though, you seem to actually be taking my argument seriously, though it seems silly and absurd - the whole idea of minions is silly and absurd.

EDIT: I love minions. I just wish Burning Blood or whatever it's called didn't kill every minion within 10 squares. That's just silly. This is just an example of something that SHOULDN'T kill minions that I have actual rules backing for. At least, semantically.

 

[Arbitrary]

Why wouldn't a Minion enter it? Why wouldn't they jump into it in swarms? They are immune.

Ok, they don't. Fine. That's great until the Wizard takes a move action and moves the Stinking Cloud up to six squares. Then you get to explain why all the minions are immune.

Sorry Mr Wizard, remember you hit 4 out of 5 times when you cast it? That one missed attack actually made Minions immune to the power.

Sorry.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Nah, I'd still qualify the Stinking Cloud as a hit attack, as a missed attack is an attack that didn't hit, not an attack that missed. Or is it? Yay semantics.

The ruling is absurd, I'll admit it, but it's also COMPLETELY logical. You're setting up straw men, and knocking them over. The fact that Stinking Cloud follows the same rules and seems less logical doesn't mean that I am wrong, just that Stinking Cloud is not Cloud of Knives. This is the reason I used Cloud of Daggers (whoops, stupid 3.5 making me keep saying Knives) as it is the simplest way to check the rules. Everything else falls into place from there.

Note: I'd also have Stinking Cloud kill minions. But that'd be a House Rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Cloud of Knives is an At-Will attack.

It's an At-Will Attack Power. When you use that power, you make an attack (which can hit or miss), and you also have an effect.

If the attack misses, the attack deals no damage to the minion. The effect, on the other hand, is a separate element of the At-Will Attack Power, and is not an attack; therefore, it cannot be a missed attack, and the minion is not immune to the damage dealt by the effect.

-Hyp.

 

[SadisticFishing]

But an Attack Power is an Attack by definition.

Mostly, do you really think (wis) damage should kill a minion, where (3d6+int)/2 doesn't? Even though the attacks follow virtually identical principles?

 

[Arbitrary]

The ruling is absurd, I'll admit it, but it's also COMPLETELY logical.

Those words don't go together. Anyway -

-----
Effects, pg 59

Many powers produce effects that take place regardless of whether your attack roll succeeds, and other powers have effects that occur without an attack roll being required.

-----

I submit that the Effect component of Cloud of Daggers creates a zone that occurs without an attack roll being required. As no attack roll is required it is incapable of either hitting or missing.

or

I submit that the Effect component of Cloud of Daggers creates a zone that occurs regardless of whether your attack roll succeeds. As such it is disconnnected from anything that is supposed to happen on a miss and it is disconnected from anything that is supposed to happen on a hit.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

But an Attack Power is an Attack by definition.

Mostly, do you really think (wis) damage should kill a minion, where (3d6+int)/2 doesn't? Even though the attacks follow virtually identical principles?

Being that cleave damage kills a minion when it's not even targeted, yeah, I have problem with an effect killing a minion.

That's what they are there for.