CoDZilla?

[Kaisoku]

I will not apologize for being too awesome.
Thanks for the kudos!

I think, ultimately, they are still incredibly versatile, and this might still rankle a few people out there.
It's hard to really bring things in line without making sweeping changes that might completely redefine the classes.

The Archetypes seem to give the non-CoD classes more options, but classes like the Fighter are simply too far behind in the "different options" aspect that it'd take a fairly expansive mechanics change (or a complete class concept change) to bring them up to the CoD level.

 

[Voadam]

Copied from my post in another thread

Three top cleric melee self buffs, a comparison of 3.5 to PF.

Divine favor looks the same (3e was capped at +3 in errata after starting as going up to +5)

Divine power used to turn BAB into 1/1 give a +6 str, and some temp hp. Now it gives +1 to hit and damage per 3 levels (max +6), a haste style extra full base attack, and some temp hp. At 7th level 3e gave +4 to hit +3 damage versus PF +2 to hit and damage. At 20th 3e is +8 to hit, +3 to damage vs. +6 to hit and damage in PF.

Righteous might gave +4 str, +2 Con, +2 natural armor, 3/6/9 DR and size large. PF now gives RM +4 str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, 5/10 DR, and size large.

A little difference in these buff spells but not much.

 

[Voadam]

2. Spell options, such as find the path, commune, find traps, etc, all allowed them to get through a number of things normally requiring skilled characters.

. . .

Pathfinder's Solution
No more heavy armor proficiency (need to give up a feat or caster level to get it typically), the buffing spells were tweaked a bit (and without divine metamagic, there's a real damper on that tactic), the utility spells were changed to no longer be the auto-solutions they once were (this was partially done in 3.5e though, to be fair), and the Domains were toned back... nice options still, but not "use arcane items like a wizard" type of role-opening stuff.

A side note, Find Traps never did so in 3e.

Find Traps
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: The character
Duration: 1 minute/level
The character can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can, but gains no special bonus on the Search checks.

So in 3.0 it gave clerics, a non int MAD class the ability to use their int based non class skill search skill to find traps that are DC 21 or above.

I challenge you find an example of anyone ever using this spell to find a trap.

In 3.5 they bumped this up a little in efficacy.

Find Traps
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can. In addition, you gain an insight bonus equal to one-half your caster level (maximum +10) on Search checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect.

Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find.

So at 20th level the typical cleric with an int of 10 will be able to find a DC 20 trap a little more than half the time.

In Pathfinder it is buffed up even more (note the auto check without searching), even before you consider how much better clerics can become at the perception skill.

Find Traps
School divination; Level cleric 2

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range personal

Target you

Duration 1 min./level

You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You gain an insight bonus equal to 1/2 your caster level (maximum +10) on Perception checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect. You receive a check to notice traps within 10 feet of you, even if you are not actively searching for them. Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find.

 

[Voadam]

Commune seems to also only have changed in going from costing 100xp to 500 gp.

 

[IronWolf]

In Pathfinder it is buffed up even more (note the auto check without searching), even before you consider how much better clerics can become at the perception skill.

Good point on the auto check. Of course this is for only 20 minutes at a time at the cost of a second level spell to do so. A rogue with the trap spotter talent can start to do this 24/7.

 

[Sylrae]

Commune seems to also only have changed in going from costing 100xp to 500 gp.

One of the major conversion points was that nothing costs XP in PFRPG.

So for spells, XP Costs became 5x that cost in gold.

 

[Kaisoku]

Yeah, I wasn't totally sure on the Cleric's changes. I had thought they had removed a part of the spell (search as a rogue does), so I had thought there was some kind of nerf involved.
Since they removed the requirement of Rogue Trapfinding to locate traps with DCs over 20, and anyone can search for them, the spell no longer needed to provide that, so it wasn't really a nerf.

I wasn't fully sure of what they've done with the spells for Clerics, so it's a good call on that one. Looking it over now, they've only made minor tweaks to a small number of spells, so it's possible I'm remembering something from Beta that was not actually carried over into the final Pathfinder rules.

This particular aspect of the Cleric (replacing skills) wasn't the major thrust of the problem anyways.

 

[Votan]

This particular aspect of the Cleric (replacing skills) wasn't the major thrust of the problem anyways.

It actually took a lot of investment in 3.5E D&D to make a spell like Find Traps work. While the spell would let you find traps with a DC > 20, the duration was short (1 min/level), it would only work on the cleric and the insight bonus has half of the cleric's level. It wasn't likely to find difficult traps unless the cleric had invested in Search (a cross-class, intelligence based skill).

It never seemed to be worth the effort except in very unsual circumstances.

 

[pawsplay]

I saw it used, once, in conjunction with that lens that grants +10 to Search. Otherwise, the party just let the Scout do his thing.