Collaborative Cave #2 - Updated map (see 1st post) - Now doing room assignment

[Elephant]

Here's the basic outline for Room 15:

Once the party finds the secret door, they can see the inscription “He who cannot give anything away cannot feel anything either.” Surrounding the inscription are four runes meaning:

* Wisdom
* Temperance
* Justice
* Courage

When the secret door is opened, it triggers a Magic Mouth that says, "To get this far, you must be strong. But, I wonder, are you worthy?"

As the PCs open the door, they hear a whimpering sound from within.

They see an emaciated Pixie elder chained to the wall with cold iron shackles. Scars criscross her face and hands, and she has blackened stumps where her wings once were.

If the PCs release her (non-Fey PCs will automatically succeed in removing the shackles), she will thank the PCs and accompany them through the rest of the cave. She will be able to show them a hidden cache where her possessions were being kept. In gratitude for her release, she offers everything she owns.

If they accept all her possessions, they fail the test. If they accept some reward but leave her with the rest of her possessions, or if they give her anything to help her out once she leaves the cave, they pass. After all, a crippled Pixie could use SOMETHING to help return to her life in the forest!

If they attack her, she dies (her DR, SR, and special abilities are suppressed by the shackles, and she has no equipment).

As they leave the secret room, the ceiling of room 13 collapses, a pair of dragons flawing and biting at each other. One is Copper, one is Green. They roll away from each other and hop to their feet, then take notice of the PCs. "Say, these morsels don't have an interest. Perhaps they'd be willing to arbitrate our little dispute?"

The copper dragon, looking the worse for wear, reluctantly agrees. They outline their dispute:

Green claims that he's laired nearby for over a hundred years. This copper usurper is trying to move in and claim his territory!

Copper points out that Green is an EVIL dragon, so the area is better off without him. "Besides, I need a lair of my own now, and he's just in the way." - and the dragon ends by sticking its tongue out at Green.

Attack Green or Rule for Copper: Green attacks and kills Copper, then flies away. He'll attack the PCs if any of them are convenient targets, but he focuses on Copper.

Rule for Green: Copper flies away in a huff, Green stays for a moment to chat...

Green demands that the party hand over the pixie because he needs a snack. If they stand up to his bullying, he simply flies away.

If the party fails any of these four tests, the moral axis of the PCs' alignments changes to Evil.

4 tests:
1. Wisdom - Release the pixie
2. Temperance - Leave the pixie with some of her possessions when she offers the party its reward.
3. Justice - Arbitrate fairly between the good and evil dragons (rule in favor of the Green)
4. Courage - Stand up to the dragon-bully

 

[der_kluge]

Cool. Very different - are these creatures rule, or illusions? Also, I'm not sure temperance is what you want - 'trust' might be better.

How about this: Instead of a pixie, make it a Leprechaun (Stats in the ToH), and have him tell them that if they free him, he'll take them to treasure, but first he wants his magic hat and magic pipe. PCs will be MAJORLY suspicious of a leprechaun, but most want pay a moment's notice to giving a Pixie back her gear.

If anyone determines through the course of events that they are illusions - they pass the Wisdom test.

If the PCs rule in favor of the green dragon they pass the justice test.

And if they refuse to be bullied by the green, or attack and kill him afterwards, they pass the courage test.


Also, I'm not sure setting their alignments to Evil is warranted. If they fail these tests, they're not automatically evil. Reward them in some way if they do pass the tests. Or, if they fail, have the room summon an elemental to fight or something like that.

 

[Elephant]

What's the ToH? Is it OGL? Can I get these stats online somehow?

As for temperance vs. trust, my intent is four trials based on the four classical virtues. I've edited my outline post to better reflect that - the PCs are offered a reward, and they pass the Temperance test if they're not greedy. That should be a tough one for most groups.

Maybe setting alignments to evil is extreme, but I've tried to structure these trials to be revealing about how the characters are really being played. If they fail, they can't really claim to be Good.

How about this: If they fail, their alignment shifts one step towards Evil, they gain one negative level for each trial they failed, and they require an Atonement spell to be cast to remove the negative level(s) and regain their previous alignment.

Oh, and if the PCs actually attack the Green dragon, they fail the Courage test - to quote the Wiki page, "As a virtue, courage is covered extensively in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, its vice of deficiency being cowardice, and its vice of excess being recklessness." Attacking a Green dragon under the conditions I've outlined is reckless rather than brave.

Edit: Also, my intent wasn't that these be illusions, though the part with the dragons doesn't make as much sense if it's not an illusion - it's a little too convenient for them to crash through just as the PCs are leaving the pixie's cell. OTOH, I really don't want the tests involving the dragons to be short-circuited by a PC getting lucky and detecting an illusion.

You'll note that all four trials depend on how the players make decisions rather than on character prowess. It's supposed to test what the players are really made of, rather than how they constructed their character stats.

 

[der_kluge]

What's the ToH? Is it OGL? Can I get these stats online somehow?

As for temperance vs. trust, my intent is four trials based on the four classical virtues. I've edited my outline post to better reflect that - the PCs are offered a reward, and they pass the Temperance test if they're not greedy. That should be a tough one for most groups.

Maybe setting alignments to evil is extreme, but I've tried to structure these trials to be revealing about how the characters are really being played. If they fail, they can't really claim to be Good.

How about this: If they fail, their alignment shifts one step towards Evil, they gain one negative level for each trial they failed, and they require an Atonement spell to be cast to remove the negative level(s) and regain their previous alignment.

Oh, and if the PCs actually attack the Green dragon, they fail the Courage test - to quote the Wiki page, "As a virtue, courage is covered extensively in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, its vice of deficiency being cowardice, and its vice of excess being recklessness." Attacking a Green dragon under the conditions I've outlined is reckless rather than brave.

I could see that last point leading to Player vs. DM arguments. "What do you mean, attacking the green dragon wasn't courageous?"

ToH=Tome of Horrors. Curiously, there's nothing in the leprechaun stats about pots of gold, or granting wishes. *Shrug*

(3.0 stats)
Leprechaun
HD: 1d6(3hp)
Init: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Init.)
Speed: 40'
AC: 14 (+1 size, +3 Dex)
Attacks: Dagger +4 melee
Damage: Dagger 1d4-2
Face/Reach: 5'x5'/5'
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: SR 27, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +0, Ref+5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +7, Conc. +4, Craft (any) +5, Escape Artist +7, Hide +11, Listen +14, Move Silently +7, Open Lock +7, Perform (comedy, dance, limericks, melody) +7, Pick Pocket +7, Search +5, Sense Motive +6, Spot +6
Feats: Dodge, Improved Init., Mobility, Weapon Finesse (dagger)
Climate/Terrain: Temperate Forest
CR: 4
Alignment: Always neutral

Spell Like Abilities: at will - dancing lights, invisibility (Self only), permanent image (visual and auditory elements only), polymorph any object, and ventriloquism. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 7th level sorcerer (DC 13 + spell level).

Author: Scotte Green, based on original material by Gary Gygax"

Personally, I hate it. I think I'd bump the CR up to about 8, give it all kinds of ridiculous modifiers on Bluff and Sense Motive, lots more spell-like abilities, and the ability to grant a wish if captured. That speaks more to Leprechaun than the above statblock.


I'm still not certain your punishment makes sense - it's supposed to be a "test" right - the purpose of a test is to reward those who pass, not punish those who fail. At least, in my opinion. I mean, if I fail the ACT/SAT, my reward is college. Failure doesn't mean I get 10 lashes with a moistened cane.

 

[Elephant]

I could see that last point leading to Player vs. DM arguments. "What do you mean, attacking the green dragon wasn't courageous?"

A fair point. The dragon is supposed to be strong enough that a combat is recklessly suicidal, though, so hopefully the argument would be along the lines of players saying it was an unfair fight, the dragon was too far above their level vs. the DM saying that no one forced them to fight it.

ToH=Tome of Horrors. Curiously, there's nothing in the leprechaun stats about pots of gold, or granting wishes. *Shrug*

I'm still not certain your punishment makes sense - it's supposed to be a "test" right - the purpose of a test is to reward those who pass, not punish those who fail. At least, in my opinion. I mean, if I fail the ACT/SAT, my reward is college. Failure doesn't mean I get 10 lashes with a moistened cane.

"Being good is its own reward" is kind of what I had in mind. Most of D&D is "go on this quest, kill stuff, and get rewarded with treasure" - sure, the people in the story benefit, but the way most groups play, it works out to be a purely neutral transaction (well, if my assumptions hold, anyway). Someone playing a Good-aligned character *should not* fail these trials.

That said, I'm open to suggestions and tweaking for this room. Any sort of morality trial like this has the potential to suffer from all sorts of alignment arguments. Maybe I should include a more detailed description of the four classical virtues?

Edit:

The phrase I used early in my outline post hints at how the trial should be used.

"But, I wonder, are you worthy?"

If they pass, they're worthy for ... what? I need something else, something significant that lies beyond. These trials act as a gatekeeper to something else.

It can't be a weapon used to defeat the BBEG of this cave - the BBEG will almost certainly be encountered before this room.

I'd also prefer it not to be some sort of treasure; there will be more than enough treasure handed out elsewhere in this cave, I'm sure.

Maybe some sort of powerful NPC ally that the party could call upon "in their hour of need"?

 

[der_kluge]

That said, I'm open to suggestions and tweaking for this room. Any sort of morality trial like this has the potential to suffer from all sorts of alignment arguments. Maybe I should include a more detailed description of the four classical virtues?

Well, I can only speak for the players that I've run games for in the past - I'm afraid this room, as written is gonna get a big "WTF?" from most of them. Maybe they're too jaded - they'll want a reward. And yea, I think you need to have some definition of these terms if you're going to implement them in that way. Like, instead of "distracting" them with the captured fey and the dragon combat, you could instead forewarn them with the "trials" so that they could take the definitions and apply them to each situation.

Plus, atonement is a bit out of reach if we intend the dungeon to be around CR 7-8 or so. You might consider a curse, or better - a geas to perform some task for those the trial deems unworthy.

 

[Elephant]

Wait, what level do you expect the PCs to have attained before coming in here? I was thinking that they'd be 7th or 8th level - in which case an Atonement could be paid for easily.

 

[der_kluge]

Wait, what level do you expect the PCs to have attained before coming in here? I was thinking that they'd be 7th or 8th level - in which case an Atonement could be paid for easily.

Well, about that level - I guess atonement might not be out of the question. But the PCs themselves wouldn't have access to it yet.

 

[der_kluge]

Posted an update map - check post #1.

 

[KingCrab]

I don't mind the pixie or leprechaun encounter, but dragons randomly crashing into the dungeon room with the PC's just seems a bit too contrived. Also, are neutral characters expected to behave good for some reason in this encounter? Maybe remove any possible penalties regarding the characters actions, but toss in some reward if the players try to help the little one.