Combat actions before combat?

[Ferghis]

I'm relatively sure this has been discussed, but my google-Fu fails me. So I have to ask, if a player, while not in combat, describes an action that has a combat equivalent, and then combat broke out, would you resolve the action as if it were in combat? I realize that describing it this way is kind of abstract, so maybe we can come up with some examples.

The ones that jump to mind are readied actions and maybe full defense. What if a character aimed a crossbow at a door expecting someone to come out of it, with the intent to shoot the person immediately. If a bunch of guards were to come upon the character just before the "trigger" occurs, would you allow the combat encounter to begin with a readied action?

Or, if a character were opening a door expecting an attack, an described his character as holding a shield up and prepared for an attack, woul the character be in full defense when the expected attack came?

EDIT: I expect players to act reasonably. I do not expect them to state that their characters are in Total Defense all the time. Further, the DM is the final arbiter of the game, and her or his decisions govern it. However, if these kinds of actions are not permitted, there are three issues that become problematic.

First, how would you explain that, no matter what the character does, she'll always be able to achieve a higher defense in combat by taking Total Defense than she ever will out of combat. This really highlights the artificial absurdity of not allowing that action to be taken before combat. As I've said above, whatevere it is that earns the character the defense bonus, is probably something the character can do out of combat as well. Remember that there are no restrictions to the total defense bonus. The player declares the action, and the bonus applies until the end of the character's next turn, without limitations.

The second point is a minor one: if you, like the most folks, have ruled that there are actions you can't take out of combat, it seems unfair to then turn around and say that only the DM can decide when combat begins. It's a bit like saying that the DM decides when your character can take that action, which is against the core 4e philosophy. Not a big issue, but a nagging one nonetheless.

Third, what detrimental consequence would there be if players were allowed to take Total Defense and Ready Actions, within reason, outside combat to prepare for the chance that combat is imminent? It seems to me that monsters would get just as much mileage from this option, and the 2 pip difference is insufficient to cause any serious problems.

 

[Aulirophile]

Well.... if it an ambush? Just have a surprise round if the enemy fails perception. Straightforward.

If they were being chased I would actually roll initiative and consider the chase part of combat (or a skill challenge if they were trying to get away rather then just finding better ground. Failure means you have to fight and/or get captured).

Technically, no, unless initiative has been rolled you can't ready an action. But if you allow them, always bear in mind it is a SPECIFIC action for a SPECIFIC trigger. Have them be very specific if they try and munchkin total defense. Make them roll endurance checks if they are traveling with "total defense readied for any attack." Every failure, lose a healing surge, add +2 to the check every hour. Or point out that travel speed is based on just walking, give him a speed penalty for being alert enough to have the readied action work.

I'd let the crossbow example work, though. Then I'd have a friendly open the door. $$

 

[Mengu]

You can't "ready an action" or "use full defense" while you're not in combat, these are combat actions. However you can make a stealth check to be very quiet while the door is opening. If those opening the door weren't expecting anyone behind, then they may be surprised (based on perception checks). Initiative is rolled. If some enemies were surprised, you have a surprise round where the crossbow guy gets a shot off, and the guy with the shield can use a standard action for full defense if he wishes (in their initiative order). During this surprise round, the surprised party or parties doesn't get to act. Then the non-surprise round begins.

If the group busting through the door knows there are people behind, no surprise round is needed you just roll initiative and go. Essentially everyone had readied actions, the crossbow guy wanted to shoot as soon as the door opened, the shield guy wanted to full defense, the guy opening the door wanted to charge, and his buddy behind him was ready with a fire ball. Whose readied action goes first? Initiative will tell, and guess what, that's a regular round of combat.

There should not normally be any attacks that happen outside of combat (except those that are narrated, such as you interrogate a goblin and flub some intimidate rolls, get annoyed and decide to chop it's head off, and the DM narrates the last echoing yelp of the goblin and the gruesome gush of blood).

 

[Victim]

Yeah. Think of it as like the jump ball in basketball or the face off in hockey. Everyone is ready, but somehow one guy still ends up with the ball/puck over the other guy.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Or, if a character were opening a door expecting an attack, an described his character as holding a shield up and prepared for an attack, woul the character be in full defense when the expected attack came?

At least with this example, the question is, why is the PC expecting an attack? Unless you yourself are violating the rules of combat (ie- giving the enemies an auto-surprise round even though the PC's are opening the door and the monsters are in plain sight, or allowing the monsters a free attack when it opens) then this example shouldn't even be a problem.

So the guy is is using total defense? Fine. You've defended against nothing, now the monsters see you, roll initiative. Unless they're trying to do this in order to try and game traps that need a hit roll, it shouldn't ever come up unless something else is a little wonky in the combat.

 

[Jhaelen]

"I always expect an ambush!"

 

[Nytmare]

"I always expect an ambush!"

Encounter 3 - The Spanish Inquisition

 

[Ferghis]

For what it's worth, I'm leaning towards not allowing it myself, but I'd like to flesh this out a bit further, mostly because some details still don't quite make sense to me.

Surprise
Surprise applies when people aren't expecting something. If a player is (legitimately) expecting an attack, or in the case of the sniper that is aware that of the guards coming down on him, surprise rules aren't really relevant.

Or, if a character were opening a door expecting an attack, an described his character as holding a shield up and prepared for an attack, woul the character be in full defense when the expected attack came?

...
So the guy is is using total defense? Fine. You've defended against nothing, now the monsters see you, roll initiative. Unless they're trying to do this in order to try and game traps that need a hit roll, it shouldn't ever come up unless something else is a little wonky in the combat.

The issue here is that the actions in the examples have consequences on the next round, and if they are taken "in the round before," so to speak, the characters would already have them in effect when initiative is rolled. So, the character that used total defense would have raised defenses if the bad guys won initiative. The effects of total defense explicitly last until the end of your next turn. The guy with the readied action would have it go off when the trigger warranted it, even if it was before his or her initiative dictated. That's the whole point of using these kinds of actions.



Potential solutions
One idea might be to roll initiative as soon as a character declares they are taking a combat action, even if there's no trace of attacks being resolved anytime soon. I can't really find fault in this notion, other than it's not what the DMG recommends, and it sounds annoying. If players are given combat tracking jobs or other game-duties that apply only to combat, this has the added benefit of being annoying to the players if it's done uselessly. Still, this is not my ideal solution.

But if you allow them, always bear in mind it is a SPECIFIC action for a SPECIFIC trigger. Have them be very specific if they try and munchkin total defense. Make them roll endurance checks if they are traveling with "total defense readied for any attack." Every failure, lose a healing surge, add +2 to the check every hour. Or point out that travel speed is based on just walking, give him a speed penalty for being alert enough to have the readied action work.

Obviously, there have to be limits to prevent abuse. For starters, I wouldn't allow any kind of combat action during any sort of resting. Also, taking standard actions definitely cuts down travel speed. But I'd love a reasonable mechanic that went further than what Aulirophile described. Something along the lines of

Every time you take a combat action outside combat, make a [something like will: Wisdom, maybe? Endurance doesn't seem to quite fit] check against DC [5? 10?]. For every consecutive time in which combat doesn't occur, raise the DC by [1? 2?]. This penalty resets to 0 after a [short? extended? probably extended] rest. If you fail the check, your character's focus wavers, s/he fails to properly perform the action, and it is ineffective.

I already see a few problems with this rule. First, it takes away from the notion that the player characters are highly capable heroes. Second, it's exactly the kind of book-keeping that 4e wants to move away from. Third, I'm not sure what kinds of actions trigger it. I might apply something like this to perception checks that find nothing. It's basically a way to simulate mental fatigue. For example, if players start checking traps every 5 feet of a long corridor, many of them are going to get progressively worse at it.

The good thing about this rule is that it can turn these situations into something of a skill challenge, if players use multiple skills to keep their attention focused, and must choose between aiding the will check and the perception check, for example. Actually, maybe turning this into a skill challenge is a good idea, but I'm terrible at putting those together. Another benefit is that it would encourage players to rotate the characters that perform such actions, so as to minimize the penalty incurred by each character.

I'd let the crossbow example work, though. Then I'd have a friendly open the door. $$

Obviously. "Your helpless old mother opens the door. Given the helpless condition, roll critical damage."

 

[lukelightning]

I'd consider situational initiative bonuses, like a +2 to initiative if you "readied" to attack something that appeared within the next couple of minutes.

 

[DracoSuave]

Full defensive means being aware of what's attacking and concentrating on defending against that.


So.... let's say you're in a forest. Full Defensive time, right?

Right.

So, what do you do, do you stand firm, do you dodge left to right, do you raise your shield, do you use your runes of protection? Hmm. So you're dodging left to right, what if it's a fire-ball firing monster idol of death? Right, okay, so you raise your shield. What if it's a phasing ghost? Right, so you're holding still until the last second, and then dodging out of the way? What if it's a poison gas that slowly creeps up? Oh, you're holding your breath?

Full Defense implies some awareness of specific danger coming at you. It's hard to defend against something truly unknown. You're in a forest. All you can see are bushes, trees, and birds. Lots of birds.

Small, tiny birds.

Do you dodge, take cover, stand fast, gird your will, how -exactly- do you defend against something you have no awareness of? Every monster requires a different defensive trick. So the full defense option doesn't even really -make sense- until you've had a couple seconds to go 'Oh, goblins' or 'Oh, dragon' or 'Oh, tentacle-faced psionic braineater thing'


And if you've readied an action (which is perfectly fine) do understand that it requires an immediate reaction in order to activate. That means that whatever you plan, you cannot do until you've had a turn anyways, as before then, you cannot do -any- actions. (in a surprise round, which you might not get a shot, because while you're being cautious, you're not actually -aware- of the specific danger. Being on the look out for bandits in front of you doesn't help if they've attacked you from behind)