Combat actions before combat?

[the Jester]

I would absolutely not allow this.

If you do allow this, every monster on guard, ever, should have either total defense up or a readied action at the start of every single combat.

If your players ask why you won't allow this, tell them what I wrote.

 

[Ferghis]

So.... let's say you're in a forest. Full Defensive time, right?

Right.

So, what do you do, do you stand firm, do you dodge left to right, do you raise your shield, do you use your runes of protection? Hmm. So you're dodging left to right, what if it's a fire-ball firing monster idol of death? Right, okay, so you raise your shield. What if it's a phasing ghost? Right, so you're holding still until the last second, and then dodging out of the way? What if it's a poison gas that slowly creeps up? Oh, you're holding your breath?

I don't think what you describe would be a reasonable player's request. Further, going by your description, all of a character's defenses should be lowered during a surprise round. This is not the case. Characters are normally ready to react and defend themselves from a broad variety of attacks.

Let's examine a more reasonable example. A fighter is opening a door, and he beleives that something is going to attack him from the other side. He doesn't know the exact location of the attacker, and he doesn't know exactly how the sniper is going to attack, but he's pretty sure something is going to attack him. So the player describes how the warrior crouches a little and positions his shield properly before opening the door, so that the character can more easily use the shield to block whatever might be coming at them. It's not failsafe, but it's better than not being prepared.

As a DM, you can certainly say that that's assumed in your normal defenses. That the characters are always reasonably wary and act carefully. So, the precautions described, therefore, afford no extra protection. That's a legitimate answer, in my opinion. But that seems to compare poorly with the ranger's player, who took the same opportunity to prepare a ranged twin strike against any attacker that became visible when the door opened. I see a bit of a problem there. Why is the readied action okay, but not the action that is the game-mechanic implementation of a cautious, defensive stance? Given the defender's role, that seems to be a somewhat unfair way to come down.

 

[Mengu]

Why is the readied action okay, but not the action that is the game-mechanic implementation of a cautious, defensive stance? Given the defender's role, that seems to be a somewhat unfair way to come down.

Once again, the ranger's readied action is NOT okay either. The ranger can be no readier than a creature on the other side of the door getting ready to blast him. Surprise and initiative determines who goes when.

 

[Ferghis]

Mengu, the portion of my post that you quote was directed to Dracosuave, or to those that share his opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with you responding to it.



Anyone have any reactions to the idea that players can trigger an initiative roll, even if there aren't any enemies visible? That players can decide to go into "combat time" before, for example, their characters open a door, making all the combat actions viable? As I seaid above, I'm not particularly in love with this idea, but it is obviously problematic to simply state that a character can't take an action out of combat that he could otherwise take in combat.

 

[Amaroq]

So, the important thing is to make sure that the player feels like their actions mean something, while the character doesn't gain an over-the-top advantage for this.

A player opens the door expecting an attack, with his shield up and prepared for an attack. Here's what I'd give him:
a.) He cannot be Surprised by things in the room - at least, not at the door.
b.) He might have Surprise over things in the room, if his Stealth beat their Perception
c.) He has the full benefits to AC and Reflex of having a shield. Just like he ought to.
d.) He doesn't get any "Full Defense" bonuses.

Seriously - "holding up my shield ready for an attack" is flavor text, not an action!

A player aims a crossbow at a door, excellent, waiting for somebody to come through. Here's what I'd give him:
a.) He has his crossbow out and loaded.
b.) He cannot be surprised by anybody coming through the door, and in fact, is pretty much guaranteed to participate in a Surprise round if somebody comes through the door.
c.) He's almost guaranteed to be surprised by anybody coming through any other entrance to his location. I might even run a "everybody on both sides but you participates in it" surprise round.
d.) He does not have a readied action.

Its .. almost flavor text - except for the implications on Surprise. For that, I'd also say, look you can guarantee that you aren't surprised in the next minute or two, but your concentration falters after that: you can't just guard a door with no chance of Surprise indefinitely. Oh, and if you want to try to do that for an entire five-minute-rest - okay, hunters can maintain a high degree of focus for five minutes, so I'll allow that, but while the remainder of the party get their rest, you do not: you're doing something besides resting.

Surprise rules are almost always relevant, in my mind: the one time they aren't is when you have two parties conversing or otherwise both aware of each other, and expecting that hostilities may break out.

The way I run Stealth vs Passive Perception for a typical encounter, its quite possible to wind up with members of both parties acting in the Surprise round, while other members of both parties do not.

One idea might be to roll initiative as soon as a character declares they are taking a combat action, even if there's no trace of attacks being resolved anytime soon. I can't really find fault in this notion, other than it's not what the DMG recommends, and it sounds annoying. If players are given combat tracking jobs or other game-duties that apply only to combat, this has the added benefit of being annoying to the players if it's done uselessly.

Annoying the other players might be a feature, not a bug: social feedback may press your players to not waste your time with this actions.

Alternately, if you want to punish just the character of the overly-specific player. Our character coming through the door has his shield up as described. "Okay, you burst into the room with a Surprise round, which you use to take the Total Defense action. Everybody else, what do you do?"

So our character who has been "too cautious" finds himself standing in the doorway, defending himself against attacks which can't happen until the first full round of combat ... and learns pretty quickly not to do that kind of thing in the future.

Though, seriously, I'd be pretty angry if my DM did that to me; I'd rather he interpret it as flavor text as I described above.

 

[Ferghis]

...

Thanks, Amaroq, for a very well reasoned and written post.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This does come up pretty often, and I think it stems from the designers not making explicit their concept of how surprise and initiative play off in the initiating of combat.

There are basically 4 possibilities in any encounter, both sides are ready, the monsters are surprised, the party is surprised, both sides are unready.

If both sides are ready then nobody is surprised and combat simply starts as normal, if you react quickly enough (get a high init roll) you can set your defenses or get off a shot before the other side acts. Both sides could be in this situation to whatever extent vs some members of the other side.

If both sides are unready then neither is surprised (or both are, same difference). This plays out just like above.

In the other two cases the surprising side can set up its actions or whatever. The other side is flat footed and the surprise round IS the point where all that happens.

Initiative always happens at the instant one side or the other initiates its actions against the other. Anything that happens before that is just 'exploration mode' and doesn't bear on the combat outside of it may precipitate it or determine if you get surprise(d) or not.

When a party comes to a door or something similar and is wary, they won't be surprised, at least not by anything that is apparent on the other side when they open the door. If they were stealthy, then they can get surprise and do their thing, otherwise its just a matter of case 1 above where members of both sides react as swiftly as their initiative says they do.

If the monsters were to have prepared an ambush on the other side of the door, well then assuming the party doesn't perceive them, nothing happens instantly. Combat hasn't be joined yet. The characters will presumably enter the room and at some point after that the monsters will initiate combat and get a surprise round (or not if someone notices them first).

Readying actions before initiative just doesn't need to come up. If your side has surprise then you effectively HAVE a readied action. If it doesn't then you are no more or less prepared than the enemy. As Amaroq said, your normal state is assumed to be wary and ready for action. If its not, then you're surprised! And note that in a surprise round the surprised side DOES grant combat advantage, so that accounts for not having their defenses up.

 

[Amaroq]

Thank you, Ferghis - too kind!

Now to confuse things.

There are basically 4 possibilities in any encounter, both sides are ready, the monsters are surprised, the party is surprised, both sides are unready.

Personally, as a DM, I get just a little more complicated than that , but again, the design isn't precisely specified for these cases.

The example I like to use is, a two-man party is exploring along a North-South hallway, while two wandering monsters are wandering along the East-West hallway that intersects a bit up the way.

Able has a Stealth of +5 and a Passive Perception of 15.
Bob has a Stealth of +0 and a Passive Perception of 10.

The orc has a Stealth of +2 and a Passive Perception of 10.
His pet wolf has a Stealth of +4 and a Passive Perception of 17.

As they draw close to the corner, each makes a Stealth roll as follows:
Able 10, +5 = 15
Bob 12, +0 = 12
Orc 9, +2 = 11
Wolf 15, +4 = 19

The orc's 10 Perception does not hear either Bob or Able. The orc is Surprised, and does not participate in the surprise round.

The wolf's keen ears and 17 Perception hear both Bob and Able. The wolf is not surprised, and participates in the surprise round.

Able's 15 Perception hears the orc's boots on the stone floor, but not the wolf's quiet paw pads. Able is not surprised, and participates in the surprise round.

Bob's 10 Perception does not hear either the orc or the wolf. Bob is Surprised, and does not participate in the surprise round.

So, we have Able and the wolf both taking part in a Surprise round while their partners do not.

. . . . .

What Able and the wolf want to do with Surprise is unclear: but I'd roll initiative at that point and ask what they want to do with a Surprise round.

Able might choose to Charge blindly around the corner ... or he might use a Free Action to motion to the rest of his team to stop and be silent, and declare that he's readying a crossbow bolt on something appearing around the corner.

The wolf might charge around the corner (which would trigger said readied crossbow) ... or he might stop, bristle and growl, alerting his orc that something is up and readying a bite action on something being adjacent to him.

If both Able and the wolf took fairly passive use of their Surprise round, then we're into a normal combat, with normal initiative, and neither side having Surprise: neither side knows quite who they're facing yet, but they're all ready for action.

. . . . .

Now, hypothetically, let's drop the wolf. Able is not Surprised, but the orc and Bob both are. Again, Able could charge around the corner ... or Able might motion to everybody to stop and be silent, and tell me that he's readying a crossbow bolt on something appearing around the corner.

End of Surprise round. In my mental clock, the orc walks about 10' closer to the intersection. The PC's remain aware of the orc; he remains unaware of them; I'd adjudicate that that calls for a second Surprise round, which you won't find anywhere in any rulebook - but I think its warranted as nobody has actually taken a "that clearly starts combat" action yet.

Bob stops still - "I have my sword out, as usual, but I'm trying to be silent and listen for whatever Able heard." (Minor action for active Perception check). Able might ask what he hears, and I'd tell him "the footsteps are closer to the intersection now," so he might say "I keep my crossbow readied on whatever it is coming around the corner."

In that case, we have the traditional "the (entire) party is aware, and the (entire) opposition is not situation" as described.

At that point, I might well rule that the orc appears at the end of the corridor, and that begins a Surprise round, with each member of the party acting, and the hapless orc flat-footed at the intersection of the two corridors. Being fairly generous about it, I'd let Able choose whether to loose his crossbow bolt, or to try a different Standard action ... but I think a DM would be well within his rights to declare that Able's action in the Surprise round is loosing his crossbow bolt, which he does before the rest of the party do their things.

. . .

The point is, Surprise is almost always relevant, and its almost always something the DM needs to be thinking about.

When I'm writing encounters, I'll usually detail the approach I expect the party to take, including what the DC's are for each side to achieve Surprise.

I actually do the same thing when enemy reinforcements arrive - my current party, the ranger has a Passive Perception of 18, the Warlord a 15, and the rest of the party a 13, so my "default reinforcements" block reads something like this:

On their initiative in round 2, the reinforcements arrive at the edge of the encounter area. The reinforcements roll Stealth, as follows:
- Stealth DC 19: the reinforcements are placed on the battlemat at the start of their next turn, and get a full set of actions.
- Stealth DC 16: the reinforcements are placed on the battlemat at the start of the Ranger's next turn.
- Stealth DC 14: the reinforcements are placed on the battlemat at the start of either the Ranger's turn or the Warlord's turn, whichever comes next.
- Stealth DC <= 13: the reinforcements are placed on the battlemat immediately, at the end of their current turn, and get no actions.

This results, occasionally, in reinforcements surprising the party, and occasionally in the party getting to act first on the reinforcements rushing into the room, and every now and then an "oh shoot!" moment as just one person gets to react to them before the reinforcements get to go.

 

[LostSoul]

I'd consider situational initiative bonuses, like a +2 to initiative if you "readied" to attack something that appeared within the next couple of minutes.

I would go with this.

 

[S'mon]

GM's call, but there are circumstances where I'd allow a PC to start combat with a total defense bonus. It's certainly not something you can keep 'on' all the time, but it could conceivably be something you could do right before combat started. Likewise I might allow readied actions like readying to fire X-bow to effectively grant a surprise round.

To me it's more important to maintain plausibility than to stick to the strict letter of the rules. I still shudder at the memory of playing 3e and discovering it was impossible for us all to ride into town together (in combat) because the rules required non-simultaneous movement.