Combat actions before combat?



If you replace the word "combat" with "encounter" would you still consider this to be true?
Do I think the sentence "this encounter can be resolved both in encounter time or in non-combat time" to be true? I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are trying to draw between encounter-time and non-combat time. Could you elaborate?
 

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If it's in an encounter, but combat hasn't occured yet, going on Full Defense might be percieved as a hostile act; Your weapon and shield are up, you're executing a combat maneuver. A smart combatant in a world as lawless as your typical D&D world doesn't have to worry about dungeon police coming in so he can claim 'He swung first!'.

Far from it... he'll swung first, so he can be the one to swing last.
 

Excellent discussion. I don’t think allowing players to take combat actions out-side of combat is a “best practice” and here is why:

Players want to do this so they don’t have to burn an action in combat. Once you start allowing this sort of thing, it opens the door to lots of other possibilities.

How about:

Activating a stance power before combat beings?
Using a power on yourself or ally that grants temporary hp?
Using a healing power on yourself or an ally that also grants a buff?

More concretely:
In another thread (sorry no reference) someone was discussing using Defensive Healing Word on each ally during a short rest to allow them a +X bonus to all defenses against the next attack targeting them... in the next encounter. Does that sound reasonable? Not to me.

As a DM, combat actions have an effect (use power to attack, move, defend, heal, etc…) at the cost of an action, which in combat is a scarce resource. Outside of combat, the time a PC spends taking these actions is immaterial. From my perspective, players are simply trying to reduce the cost to their PCs for taking actions they wouldn’t otherwise consider taking. IMHO, that means the cost is significant to the players and should not be ignored by the DM… even if it isn’t going to break the delicate parity (beware: sarcasm) between PC and enemy.

All of that said, the “say yes” principle applies and I find that resolving these sorts of pre-combat actions in the surprise round to be very appealing. It applies an already existing set of rules and lets players who would not normally access those rules (low perception and slow PCs) to so do.
 

What is wrong about going into a battle stance before combat begins?

Ok, you look quite stupid, waste a power and you don´t profit until combat begins...
Maybe the enemy just runs await and waits until your concentration fades... i.e. 5 mins later.

Usually you can´t abuse it, and as long as you restrict yourseld to reasonable actions: i.e.: actions that will ahve an immediate effect on the soon starting combat it is ok.

total defense for entering the room: Yes
total defense while exploring: No

In all other RPGs you can do such cheese. It is the same in 4e. Don´t play against each other, especially don´t try to outsmart your DM as players or vice versa.

Why is everyone so keen to give up anything that resembles common sense. I still have the feeling that here are people who have never played in a group where fun is more important than exploiting the rules...
 

Once you start allowing this sort of thing, it opens the door to lots of other possibilities.

How about:

Activating a stance power before combat beings?
PHB said:
A stance power lasts until the end of the encounter, for 5 minutes, or until you use another stance power.
Stances have a duration in minutes, so obviously can be used out of combat. If you know a fight is around the corner, you'd be smart to take an appropriate stance beforehand. So that door is already open...
Using a power on yourself or ally that grants temporary hp?
Temp hit points definitely outlast an encounter (PHB page 294). You lose them when you take a short or long rest, so they could easily carry over between encounters. Also, the figurines of wondrous power have temp hp that may last up to 8 hours. So that door is already open...
Using a healing power on yourself or an ally that also grants a buff?
Healing word is a power that is often used out of combat. There are feats that modify it only when used out of combat. So it would be absurd to houserule a nerf to the power when used out of combat. So that door is already open...
More concretely:
In another thread (sorry no reference) someone was discussing using Defensive Healing Word on each ally during a short rest to allow them a +X bonus to all defenses against the next attack targeting them... in the next encounter. Does that sound reasonable? Not to me.
I can't find the quote now, but I thought that unless specified otherwise, the duration of an effect was until the end of the encounter or a maximum of 5 minutes. If I'm not mistaken, that buff certainly can last beyond the encounter, albeit not too long. So that door is already open too...

So, since these possibilities already opened the door pretty wide, does that mean that you would allow total defense actions out of combat? :D
 

How about an instance where the characters clearly know there is an enemy attacking them, but has no idea where that enemy is. Here's a scenario I'm planning on unleashing on my players (who, obviously, should neither highlight nor read the remainder of this paragraph).

In this case, the party is aware of the enemy though. They don't know his exact location, but they've obviously noticed someone shooting at them at range (Passive Perception should detect this). That is entirely different than saying "I'm going into combat!" just in case there's an invisible monster in the room that you are not aware of. And yes, if they notice certain things like a shimmering effect on the lights when it passes in front of them, footfalls, the invisible creature bumping into things, etc, then they're aware of it's presence but not it's location.
 

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are trying to draw between encounter-time and non-combat time.

Yeah that made more sense in my head when I sent it through. I'll try again.

The DM controls when encounters begin and end, not the players. When the DM decides (or agrees) that an encounter has started it is part of their job is to figure out where, amidst the chaotic mess of non-round-by-round, non-encounter actions, the organized back and forth of the encounter begins.

If you get to take your action first, you can decide to defend against possible attacks. You can explain it however you like. You thought that you heard something, your spider senses started tingling, you've been on your guard the entire time, whatever.

If you do not get to take your action first, you are caught with your guard down. Again, you can explain it however you like, and one of those explanations can be that, even though you've been running around for the past week with your shield raised at all times, zigging and zagging, diving from one chunk of cover to the next, at that exact moment, someone found a hole in your defenses.
 

If you do not get to take your action first, you are caught with your guard down. Again, you can explain it however you like, and one of those explanations can be that, even though you've been running around for the past week with your shield raised at all times, zigging and zagging, diving from one chunk of cover to the next, at that exact moment, someone found a hole in your defenses.

This.

'But my shield was up!'
'Good thing he aimed for your knees then, while your attention was elsewhere.'
'But but but...'
'Nice catch blanco nino... too bad your ass got saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacked.'
 

Nytmare, Draco, thanks for sticking around, but I don't see how your posts address the three issues that arise if you don't allow folks to take these kinds of actions.

First, how would you explain that, no matter what the character does, she'll always be able to achieve a higher defense in combat by taking Total Defense than she ever will out of combat. This really highlights the artificial absurdity of not allowing that action to be taken before combat. As I've said above, whatevere it is that earns the character the defense bonus, is probably something the character can do out of combat as well. Remember that there are no restrictions to the total defense bonus. It doesn't say that the bonus applies only against attacks the character is aware of. The player declares the action, and the bonus applies until the end of the character's next turn, without limitations.

The second point is a minor one: if you, like the most folks, have ruled that there are actions you can't take out of combat, it seems unfair to then turn around and say that only the DM can decide when combat begins. It's a bit like saying that the DM decides when your character can take that action, which is against the core 4e philosophy. Not a big issue, but a nagging one nonetheless.

Third, what would the problem be if players were allowed to take Total Defense and Ready Actions, within reason, outside combat? It seems to me that monsters would get just as much mileage from this option, and the 2 pip difference is insufficient to cause anyserious problems.

I'm perfectly able to just say no. What I'd like to do here is figure out why.
 

Nytmare, Draco, thanks for sticking around, but I don't see how your posts address the three issues that arise if you don't allow folks to take these kinds of actions.

There's absurdities if you do, but let's go on.

First, how would you explain that, no matter what the character does, she'll always be able to achieve a higher defense in combat by taking Total Defense than she ever will out of combat. This really highlights the artificial absurdity of not allowing that action to be taken before combat. As I've said above, whatevere it is that earns the character the defense bonus, is probably something the character can do out of combat as well. Remember that there are no restrictions to the total defense bonus. It doesn't say that the bonus applies only against attacks the character is aware of. The player declares the action, and the bonus applies until the end of the character's next turn, without limitations.

It's not a matter of taking it outside of combat for me. It's taking it outside of the round structure that is the problem. Now, if you're in a situation where there's a surprise round, you cannot be in total defense, because to do so requires being in an encounter to begin with.

Outside an encounter, you cannot be 'at total defense' simply because you're not in a situation where you have an idea of what you're defending from. You don't need to be individually aware of every combatant, but to be able to -defend against something- you need a broad idea of what that is. That then allows you the defense which applies against the unexpected; you don't know that -particular- combatant shoots arrows, but you've got a general idea of what to expect being that people are shooting arrows at you.

As an example.

Combat is not this 'just stand there until something happens' deal. It is -active- and total defense is not a 'Don't attack, and I'm better at defense' thing. It's -actively- trying to ward things off with your weapon, shield, spellpower, whatever.

If you're in negotiations, congrats, you're actually IN a round structure--skill challenges follow initiative just like combat--you're actually taking actions. So it's not a rules problem to go Total Defense instead of doing something... and in some cases, where traps might be involved, it's a smart move for less mechanically inclined players; If it's a diplomatic sequence, however, you might find yourself offending the other side by adopting an active combat stance.

And do not kid yourself, it IS an active combat stance.

The second point is a minor one: if you, like the most folks, have ruled that there are actions you can't take out of combat, it seems unfair to then turn around and say that only the DM can decide when combat begins. It's a bit like saying that the DM decides when your character can take that action, which is against the core 4e philosophy. Not a big issue, but a nagging one nonetheless.

The DM decides when an encounter begins. This is because the players are not setting up encounters, are not adjudicating encounters, and have no control over the overall flow of encounters. To think that they would is utter and complete nonsense.

The DM decides when encounters begin because he is running the damn game. It's not a matter of fairness, it's a matter of that's what his damn job is to do.

Seriously. What?

Saying the DM's unfair for deciding when encounters start is like saying players are being unfair for deciding their character's actions. It's a rediculous stance to even contemplate.

No, it is NOT reasonable for players to, before an encounter happens (which they do not know when is going to happen) go around and say 'No, the encounter happens one round before you say it does, because we want total defense.' That's not reasonable. The encounter starts when the challenge begins, not a round before, and not a round after. The players do not control that, the existance or non-existance of the challenge does.

Third, what would the problem be if players were allowed to take Total Defense and Ready Actions, within reason, outside combat? It seems to me that monsters would get just as much mileage from this option, and the 2 pip difference is insufficient to cause anyserious problems.

I'm perfectly able to just say no. What I'd like to do here is figure out why.

If players are able to take these options, then an encounter is supposedly underway. They don't know the nature of the encounter, but so long as there is an encounter, there's no problem with this.

Outside of encounters?

It is a waste of players' and DM's time.

Regardless, if your player decides he's at Total Defense or Ready all the time, he's in an active combat stance and cannot benefit from a short rest. And that's when you move on to the next encounter, when he inevitably rests.
 
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