Combat actions before combat?

[Saagael]

Since it has either been ignored or overlooked, I'll repeat my earlier claim.

If you can ready actions or take total defense out of combat, ALL MONSTERS EVER ENCOUNTERED should start EVERY ENCOUNTER EVER with either a total defense bonus or a readied action.

Does that sound reasonable? Not to me.

This is how I ruled it. Initiative is the mechanic by which you determine who's readied action or total defense goes off first. As soon as initiative is rolled, your readied actions and total defenses are rendered null until your turn, and you do the action again. This might be overruled during surprise rounds on a case by case basis.

That's just how I rule it.

 

[Greyfeld]

Since it has either been ignored or overlooked, I'll repeat my earlier claim.

If you can ready actions or take total defense out of combat, ALL MONSTERS EVER ENCOUNTERED should start EVERY ENCOUNTER EVER with either a total defense bonus or a readied action.

Does that sound reasonable? Not to me.

Were the monsters ready and waiting? Then it sounds reasonable. If they weren't, then it sounds like the DM being a douche.

Anyway, about the actual question, I think that any power that is used as some sort of attack (something that negatively effects other creatures) should automatically begin combat. Sure, the guy can use Aegis outside of combat, but the second he uses it, Initiative is rolled.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is how I ruled it. Initiative is the mechanic by which you determine who's readied action or total defense goes off first. As soon as initiative is rolled, your readied actions and total defenses are rendered null until your turn, and you do the action again. This might be overruled during surprise rounds on a case by case basis.

That's just how I rule it.

Exactly, as soon as the Swordmage goes to trigger off his power it IS a combat situation, roll initiative, and maybe make some skill checks to see if anyone gets surprise, then start hacking.

In the case of Aegis, if someone wants to put it on someone else in a totally non-confrontational situation then big wow, go for it. It isn't going to DO anything anyway.

 

[S'mon]

Since it has either been ignored or overlooked, I'll repeat my earlier claim.

If you can ready actions or take total defense out of combat, ALL MONSTERS EVER ENCOUNTERED should start EVERY ENCOUNTER EVER with either a total defense bonus or a readied action.

Does that sound reasonable? Not to me.

It's reasonable only if they were expecting the PCs to imminently break the door down. Obviously you can't maintain combat actions like Ready indefinitely, just as you can't (IMO) pump out at-will close blast attacks for hours at a time! If you're using them you are effectively 'in combat', with all that implies in terms of hyper-alertness, fatigue etc.

Movie example: The Corellian Corvette marines/Senatorial Guard at the start of Star Wars had a Readied action to shoot the first Imperial Stormtroopers through the Corvette airlock. They were effectively 'in combat' at that point despite there being no stormtroopers to shoot at. They could maintain that for a few minutes ok. It would also be reasonable to let the stormtroopers have a total defence action + move as they came through the airlock, rather than a move + fire, if they wanted. That would work for them since the Readied Senatorial Guard would get to Interrupt the stormtroopers' move with their standard action (fire), getting to fire before the troopers did.

Normally though the surprise round rules work fine and give more flexibility to the ambusher; I'd only use readied actions in the rare situation where both sides are aware combat is about to start, initially neither has line of effect on the other, and rolling init to see who goes first seems inappropriate. In the stormtrooper vs Corvette guards example it would probably all crunch back down to mutual readied actions (both sides being Readied to fire when the airlock door blows) & I'd end up just rolling init to see who went first.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's reasonable only if they were expecting the PCs to imminently break the door down. Obviously you can't maintain combat actions like Ready indefinitely, just as you can't (IMO) pump out at-will close blast attacks for hours at a time! If you're using them you are effectively 'in combat', with all that implies in terms of hyper-alertness, fatigue etc.

Movie example: The Corellian Corvette marines/Senatorial Guard at the start of Star Wars had a Readied action to shoot the first Imperial Stormtroopers through the Corvette airlock. They were effectively 'in combat' at that point despite there being no stormtroopers to shoot at. They could maintain that for a few minutes ok. It would also be reasonable to let the stormtroopers have a total defence action + move as they came through the airlock, rather than a move + fire, if they wanted. That would work for them since the Readied Senatorial Guard would get to Interrupt the stormtroopers' move with their standard action (fire), getting to fire before the troopers did.

Normally though the surprise round rules work fine and give more flexibility to the ambusher; I'd only use readied actions in the rare situation where both sides are aware combat is about to start, initially neither has line of effect on the other, and rolling init to see who goes first seems inappropriate. In the stormtrooper vs Corvette guards example it would probably all crunch back down to mutual readied actions (both sides being Readied to fire when the airlock door blows) & I'd end up just rolling init to see who went first.

Yeah, in this particular scene I would just give the defenders surprise. The Storm Troopers certainly expect resistance, but just by the nature of the situation the defenders would act first, so let them have a surprise round.

 

[S'mon]

Yeah, in this particular scene I would just give the defenders surprise. The Storm Troopers certainly expect resistance, but just by the nature of the situation the defenders would act first, so let them have a surprise round.

Only issue with a surprise round is that it might let the defenders shoot twice before the attackers can get a shot off, which feels wrong for this situation. I think auto-win-init with a Readied action is actually a pretty elegant solution here.

 

[Ferghis]

Exactly, as soon as the Swordmage goes to trigger off his power it IS a combat situation, roll initiative, and maybe make some skill checks to see if anyone gets surprise, then start hacking.

In the case of Aegis, if someone wants to put it on someone else in a totally non-confrontational situation then big wow, go for it. It isn't going to DO anything anyway.

I generally agree that using a power like Aegis would be viewed as an aggressive move and cause the beginning of combat, but I can imagine a few borderline situations where weapons are drawn and aimed (generally regarded as hostile actions) without actually resulting in combat. This kind of standoff is a situation where an Aegis might also not start combat.

 

[Nytmare]

It's reasonable only if they were expecting the PCs to imminently break the door down. Obviously you can't maintain combat actions like Ready indefinitely, just as you can't (IMO) pump out at-will close blast attacks for hours at a time! If you're using them you are effectively 'in combat', with all that implies in terms of hyper-alertness, fatigue etc.

Because I liked my response so much the last time I was involved in this conversation: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/274346-combat-actions-before-combat-5.html#post5149053

I think of it less along the lines of "you can't do it all the time" and more along the lines of "sure you can try to do it all the time, but when you roll for initiative, if you don't roll high enough combat might start in that brief moment when you were distracted, or thinking about your mom, or wondering what you were going to have for dinner."

 

[Quickleaf]

I haven't made it thru the whole thread yet, still on page 3, but I'm curious if anyone has mentioned the hunter's Pouncing Lynx stance yet (it provides a +4 initiative bonus)?

That seems to confirm that *certain* actions at least can be taken or be ongoing before initiative is rolled.

 

[Ferghis]

I haven't made it thru the whole thread yet, still on page 3, but I'm curious if anyone has mentioned the hunter's Pouncing Lynx stance yet (it provides a +4 initiative bonus)?

That seems to confirm that *certain* actions at least can be taken or be ongoing before initiative is rolled.

Good find. I'd give xp, but I can't. Can someone cover me?