D&D 5E "Combat exhaustion" at 0 hp?

[Flamestrike]

I keep seeing this 'blase about hitting 0 hp' concern.

Why would players be blase about it? It sucks when it happens as you not only start missing turns but youre also bleeding out.

Plus things like AOEs suck bad as you auto fail Str and Dex saves when incapacitated (which is likely to kill most downed PCs) also inflicting a failed death save, and any melee damage you take is a crit and 2 failed saves.

I certainly don't see Players being blase about low hit points.

 

[Quartz]

Several DMs use some version of a homebrew rule, in lieu of Death Saves at 0 hit points, of: gain 1 level of exhaustion.

I like the idea of this but not the implementation. As others have noted, it prevents combat PCs from performing their shtick. It's not much fun for the player to have their PC taken out by a lucky hit on the first round and then be penalised for the rest of the adventure.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

How about losing 1 HD roll in current and max hp until your next long rest? So at level 1, most character can still bear to fall to 0 hp at least 2 times between long rests.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I keep seeing this 'blase about hitting 0 hp' concern.

Why would players be blase about it? It sucks when it happens as you not only start missing turns but youre also bleeding out.

Because they read online that it's "optimal" to reserve any healing for 0 hp, because at that point, the amount of monster-inflicted damage negated is maximized. Whack-a-mole with Healing Word isn't particularly uncommon.

 

[embee]

I keep seeing this 'blase about hitting 0 hp' concern.

Why would players be blase about it? It sucks when it happens as you not only start missing turns but youre also bleeding out.

Plus things like AOEs suck bad as you auto fail Str and Dex saves when incapacitated (which is likely to kill most downed PCs) also inflicting a failed death save, and any melee damage you take is a crit and 2 failed saves.

I certainly don't see Players being blase about low hit points.

My players are not blase about hitting 0. They fear hitting 0. Because of what it does to the playing field. My encounters generally are set up to avoid surround-and-pound. The players are usually outnumbered for the bulk of the battle.

If one of them goes down, then another one has to break off to stabilize them. It's not just that the fighter went down and now they're down 1 attack that round. The fighter went down. And now someone might have to get them out of harm's way and heal them. Someone might have to break off from their attack on their own monster to go hit that other monster so that it doesn't try to hit the fighter again. It's not just one attack gone. It's sometimes two or three.

Then again, I also play with negative HP. So a PC with 6hp who takes 12dmg is at -6hp, not 0hp. A healing spell may not get them back to 1hp.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because they read online that it's "optimal" to reserve any healing for 0 hp, because at that point, the amount of monster-inflicted damage negated is maximized. Whack-a-mole with Healing Word isn't particularly uncommon.

Well then they're utter idiots.

Healing word chews up a spell slot, and a bonus action (and being a bonus action spell, it negates the ability of the caster to cast another spell that turn), and only heals you (you remain prone).

As for the person dropped to zero, you get to spend an entire round prone and incapacitated and easy prey for a coup de grace or getting nuked in a AoE or similar (plus losing your actions).

Entering encounters on anything less than full HP is suicide.

The only time I see 'whack a mole' is when an encounter gets a little too deadly and PCs start to drop, and get stuck in a 'healing loop'.

It's just a non issue, and if it WAS an issue the last thing I would be doing would be implementing a rule that a) overly penalizes martial PCs, and b) mandates the 5MWD.

If you must have some kind of rule, I'd simply bring in a rule that after your first failed death save of the day, the remainder are at disadvantage until you take a long rest.

IMG I did increase the DC to a 15 Con ability check to make it a bit harder to pass, and bring Con into it a bit more.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I have done the "replace the 3 Death Saves" for the Exhaustion table before. When I did it though, I re-ordered the Exhaustion table because I found having disadvantage on ability checks at level 1 to be way too penalizing for the rest of the adventuring day. Getting Exhaustion should make you think twice about getting into more fights... not having everything else you do be where your problems lie. So my table looked like this:

Level 1: Movement speed halved
Level 2: Hit Point Maximum halved
Level 3: Disadvantage on attack rolls, saving throws, and STR ability checks
Level 4: Disadvantage on all other ability checks
Level 5: Movement speed zero
Level 6: Death

It put the most easily worked-around penalty first. Moving half speed just means out of combat you have to use your action to Dash in order to keep up with everyone, while the others can scout, forage, map etc. while moving. Then halving your HP maximum is painful... but your combat ability is not yet lessened so you can still fight normally if you have to... but it does put more pressure on you and your allies to manage who is getting hit and where your healers are.

Then once you get to Level 3 you pretty much shouldn't be fighting at all. And as probably is obvious... I put STR ability checks in with attacks and saves because most STR checks involve in-combat action with grappling, shoving and such, and I felt all actions you take in combat should be at disadvantage. It does mean that swimming, climbing and jumping get penalized before all other ability checks... but I was fine with that. After that, your out-of-combat activities get destroyed... and then you are helpless and then dead (like the normal Exhaustion chart.)

I found this chart to be much more manageable, and the players had no issue with it. I did have some other extra rules on recovery from Exhaustion-- a long rest to lose one level... and if you had someone attending to you over the long rest you lost two (although that individual did not gain the effects of a long rest if they spent the eight hours nursing you to health.)

Best of luck with however you decide to run it!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Proposed System:

1. At 0 hit points, PC gains 1 level of "combat exhaustion" and any concentration effects end. Combat exhaustion is the same as normal exhaustion and stacks with it, but is easier to remove by:
   • 1 per short rest or lesser restoration
   • All by a long rest, greater restoration, or potion of vitality.
2. The PC makes a Concentration saving throw to gain the "staggered" condition and stay conscious. Failure means the character gains the "unconscious" condition. Once a player gains at least 1 hit point, they lose these conditions. A player can voluntarily "fail" the save (perhaps to avoid looking like a threat on the battlefield).
   • If the save is failed by 5 or more, the PC gains a "lingering injury" per the DMG p272.
3. A "staggered" PC loses reactions, cannot move unless they use the Dash action, and can only take a single Action or Bonus action on their turn. Each time the PC takes damage while staggered, they must make another Concentration saving throw as above.
   • Option A:any subsequent damage to a staggered or unconscious PC is taken from their Vitality points. At 0 Vitality, the PC is dead, unless the enemy opts to knock them out with an otherwise fatal melee attack, leaving the PC with 1 vitality and the unconscious condition.
     • Vitality = starting HP, only changing if the CON modifier changes.
     • Vitality heals at the rate of 1 per Long Rest. It can be magically healed if the character is already at full hit points, and then at the rate of 1 for every 10 points of healing. Regeneration is the exception, always heals at least 1 per tic.
   • OR, thinking Option B: any subsequent hits imposes 1 combat exhaustion; a critical hit imposes 2. The enemy can opt to knock them out with an otherwise fatal melee attack (one that would give them 6 exhaustion levels), leaving the PC with 5 levels of normal exhaustion (all combat exhaustion is now converted to normal exhaustion).

Hey @toucanbuzz I've got some more time so I'll review it in detail.

1. Looks great.

An option you might want to consider is what we just started: your "combat exhaustion" starts at level 6 (unconscious, not dead). If you are healed, your level immediately becomes 6 - your CON modifier. At the end of each successive turn, your level decreases until it is gone.

Ex. CON 14 (typical IME) would be unconscious, after being healed to 1 hp (or more), you would be at 4 (6-2) levels of "combat exhaustion". In other words: you have half max HP, disadvantage on attacks/saves, half speed, and disadvantage on ability checks.

At the end of your next turn, your max HP would be normal.
At the end of the next turn, you no longer have disadvantage on attacks/saves.
And so on, until all effects are gone (4 rounds later, in this case).

This means any "combat exhaustion" will be gone shortly after the battle is over. You won't have to worry about recovering it later, or house-ruling spells to remove it, etc. If you have normal exhaustion, that is still in effect even after your combat exhaustion reaches that level or better.

2. What DC are you using for the CON save? We make it the same as a Concentration Check (DC 10 or half damage, whichever is higher).

3. Starting HP for Vitality is good. We've used that, and also just your CON score, which is our current default. Another option is to tie in levels of exhaustion with it. So, your Vitality (we use the term "Wound Points" from SW d20) would equal 5 + your CON modifier.

In your system, I think this would translate into additional damage granting levels of exhaustion, which can get pretty brutal LOL!

Magical healing restores 1 Vitality (Wound Point) per spell level. So, a Heal would restore 6 points, and a level 1 Cure Wounds would be 1 point, etc.

While "Wounded" (i.e. no HP) or "Staggered" (your term) I like the only action or bonus action--using Dash as a move simplifies things, too.

There are lots of ways to do all this so if it works as you have it and your table likes it, I'm glad for any help I was able to offer. I am currently compiling an extended house-rules document with whatever current version we settle on. I'll probably post a thread on it in the next week or so. Anyway, good work and I hope it works out for you!

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well then they're utter idiots.

Healing word chews up a spell slot, and a bonus action (and being a bonus action spell, it negates the ability of the caster to cast another spell that turn), and only heals you (you remain prone).

As for the person dropped to zero, you get to spend an entire round prone and incapacitated and easy prey for a coup de grace or getting nuked in a AoE or similar (plus losing your actions).

Entering encounters on anything less than full HP is suicide.

The only time I see 'whack a mole' is when an encounter gets a little too deadly and PCs start to drop, and get stuck in a 'healing loop'.

It's just a non issue, and if it WAS an issue the last thing I would be doing would be implementing a rule that a) overly penalizes martial PCs, and b) mandates the 5MWD.

If you must have some kind of rule, I'd simply bring in a rule that after your first failed death save of the day, the remainder are at disadvantage until you take a long rest.

IMG I did increase the DC to a 15 Con ability check to make it a bit harder to pass, and bring Con into it a bit more.

You know... there's always the possibility that all the other tables don't run combat the way yours does. So all of these points you are stating like they were facts might not actually be true for anybody else.

So claiming these ideas are not necessary is rather kind of pointless.

 

[DND_Reborn]

How about losing 1 HD roll in current and max hp until your next long rest? So at level 1, most character can still bear to fall to 0 hp at least 2 times between long rests.

This is nice, it works in to one of my house-rules about spending HD. If you go to 0 HP, you can spend a HD to offset the damage, possibly keeping you above 0 hp (and thus in the fight).