Combat Expertise and Duelists

[iwatt]

From the SRD:

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.
as well as:

Elaborate Parry (Ex): At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has.

From the first, I believe it's clear that Expertise replaces the Fight Defensively action. Second, I believe most Duelist builds will take Combat Expertise as a feat, if not for it's own worth (pretty good) maybe as a gateway to Improved disarm (Zorro always disarmed his opponets once per combat ). So assuming a Duelist with the Combat expertise feat, what must he do to gain the benefit of Elaborate parry:

1) Must fight defensively, forgoing the use of Combat Expertise. This seems harsh.
-4 AT, +2 AC + EP
2) Trade 4 points of base attack using combat expertise. This at least makes him as crappy as hitting as (1), but makes him tougher ACwise.
-4 AT, +4AC +EP
3) Trade 2 points of base attack using combat expertise. Makes him better at hitting than (1), getting the same AC benefit.
-2 AT, +2AC + EP
4) Trade at least 1 point of attack using combat expertise. This allows the character to trade only one point of attack for an extraordinary amount of AC benefit, for very low cost, or trade a lot of base attack for unhitable AC. Pretty precise, very unhitable, very flexible.
-X AT, +X AC +EP

So my question is, what option is correct. (1) seems like shafting the character. (4) has the "problem" of Combat Expertise becoming a "must have" feat for a duelist.

Also, what about the Tumble bonus to AC when fighting defensively. When using Combat expertise, does it come into effect in:
A) Never
B) Combat Expertise 2
C) Combat Expertise 4
D) Combat Expertise 1-5

What is the correct interpretation here?

 

[Magic Slim]

It's not in the 3.5 FAQ, but the 3.0 FAQ states that you can use both Fighting defensively and Expertise (now Combat Expertise) at the same time.

So, in order to gain the benefits of Elaborate parry, the duelist must use Fighting Defensively. -4 to Attacks, +2 to AC, +Level to AC, +1 to AC (if 5 ranks or more in Tumble)

To get a crazy AC, the Duelist could use Expertise on top of that. A 10th level Duelist with Expertise could gain such a bonus on AC:
+2 to AC
+1 due to Tumble
+10 due to Duelist level
+5 due to expertise
with a -9 penalty to attack rolls.

Slim

 

[iwatt]

It's not in the 3.5 FAQ, but the 3.0 FAQ states that you can use both Fighting defensively and Expertise (now Combat Expertise) at the same time.

Slim

I just don't get it though. The text implies that Combat Expertise replaces Fighting defensively.

Personally, I'd allow Elaborate parry whenever CE is used, as well as the tumble bonus. I wouldn't allow Fighting Defensively and CE to stack. I see it more of an overlapping effect.

 

[jgsugden]

I just don't get it though. The text implies that Combat Expertise replaces Fighting defensively.

Personally, I'd allow Elaborate parry whenever CE is used, as well as the tumble bonus. I wouldn't allow Fighting Defensively and CE to stack. I see it more of an overlapping effect.

That is not an intended implication. You're reading into it too much.

If you allow elaborate parry to work like that with combat expertise, you make it more powerful. This class had to be tweaked down because it was already too powerful. For balance issues alone, I'd lean away from your suggestion.

 

[Shadeus]

p. 140 Player's Handbook (not SRD)
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat (page 92).

I think that says it all. Duelist require 5 ranks of Tumble, so that means a 7th-level duelist with Combat Expertise could get a bonus to their AC of:

+ 3 (fighting defensively) + 5 (combat expertise) + 7 (elaborate parry) = +15

This is at a cost of -9 to hit. It's the only reason worth taking duelist these days.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This class had to be tweaked down because it was already too powerful.

Wasn't the class tweaked down because it was front-loaded, rather than too powerful?

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Wasn't the class tweaked down because it was front-loaded, rather than too powerful?

-Hyp.

Don't think so Hyp... The really strong abilities (Elaborate Parry) kept their level, but Precise Strike got tweaked down for example.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Don't think so Hyp... The really strong abilities (Elaborate Parry) kept their level, but Precise Strike got tweaked down for example.

But the major abuse of the Duellist was one level for Canny Defense.

... which now gets you a whole +1 to AC.

Duellist isn't really a dip-the-toe class any more.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Right, nearly forgot about that change...

 

[Celtavian]

From the SRD:

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.
as well as:

Elaborate Parry (Ex): At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has.

From the first, I believe it's clear that Expertise replaces the Fight Defensively action. Second, I believe most Duelist builds will take Combat Expertise as a feat, if not for it's own worth (pretty good) maybe as a gateway to Improved disarm (Zorro always disarmed his opponets once per combat ). So assuming a Duelist with the Combat expertise feat, what must he do to gain the benefit of Elaborate parry:

1) Must fight defensively, forgoing the use of Combat Expertise. This seems harsh.
-4 AT, +2 AC + EP
2) Trade 4 points of base attack using combat expertise. This at least makes him as crappy as hitting as (1), but makes him tougher ACwise.
-4 AT, +4AC +EP
3) Trade 2 points of base attack using combat expertise. Makes him better at hitting than (1), getting the same AC benefit.
-2 AT, +2AC + EP
4) Trade at least 1 point of attack using combat expertise. This allows the character to trade only one point of attack for an extraordinary amount of AC benefit, for very low cost, or trade a lot of base attack for unhitable AC. Pretty precise, very unhitable, very flexible.
-X AT, +X AC +EP

So my question is, what option is correct. (1) seems like shafting the character. (4) has the "problem" of Combat Expertise becoming a "must have" feat for a duelist.

Also, what about the Tumble bonus to AC when fighting defensively. When using Combat expertise, does it come into effect in:
A) Never
B) Combat Expertise 2
C) Combat Expertise 4
D) Combat Expertise 1-5

What is the correct interpretation here?

Combat Expertise does not replace the Fight Defensively option because it specifically states that they stack.

Everything stacks so that a duellist can raise their AC to insane levels at the cost of accuracy.